You stated in the sub-thread above that Androl's gateway talent disproves Logain's gateway comparison as strength evidence.
Well, it does not. Look at the context.
Yes, there exists some form of gateway talent, just like Berowin's shielding talent. But channelers' own comments prove to us that this is rare enough that gateway size in general is very strongly associated with channeler strength.
And in particular, Logain's comment tells us that in the Logain/Rand case, it is stronly correlated.
Logain is a leader of the Ashaman who has direct experience of the strengths and gateway sizes of hundreds of male channelers.
And clearly, based on his experience with such a large number of channelers, strength and gateway size is correlated in such a vast majority of cases that Logain feels Rand's gateway size is a very strong indication of his comparative strength.
And furthermore, Logain only makes this comment AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, and commenting on the fact that this indeed is Rand's full strength.
Hence, AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, he still states that their comparative gateway sizes are in correspondence with their strength difference.
Logain himself makes this evaluation, having both their comparative gatway sizes and comparative strengths at hand to make this comparison. And he STILL is comfortable that the one is in correspondence to the other.
So definitely in this instance strength is related to gateway strength, and quite accurately too, and judging by Logain's confidence in the obviousness of the correlation, also in the vast majority of other instances, gateway size is perfectly correlated to strength.
Well, it does not. Look at the context.
Yes, there exists some form of gateway talent, just like Berowin's shielding talent. But channelers' own comments prove to us that this is rare enough that gateway size in general is very strongly associated with channeler strength.
And in particular, Logain's comment tells us that in the Logain/Rand case, it is stronly correlated.
Logain is a leader of the Ashaman who has direct experience of the strengths and gateway sizes of hundreds of male channelers.
And clearly, based on his experience with such a large number of channelers, strength and gateway size is correlated in such a vast majority of cases that Logain feels Rand's gateway size is a very strong indication of his comparative strength.
And furthermore, Logain only makes this comment AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, and commenting on the fact that this indeed is Rand's full strength.
Hence, AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, he still states that their comparative gateway sizes are in correspondence with their strength difference.
Logain himself makes this evaluation, having both their comparative gatway sizes and comparative strengths at hand to make this comparison. And he STILL is comfortable that the one is in correspondence to the other.
So definitely in this instance strength is related to gateway strength, and quite accurately too, and judging by Logain's confidence in the obviousness of the correlation, also in the vast majority of other instances, gateway size is perfectly correlated to strength.
I don't think its perfectly correlated at all. Firstly, we know that it's a Talent, which means that by definition channelers display varying aptitudes with the weave. Forgetting even outliers like Androl and Berowin who show extreme forms of the Talent, we have seen that Aviendha makes smaller gateways than Elayne despite having very similar strength in the Power. If we knew nothing about the two channelers, we would mistakenly assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha.
I do agree that there is a strong correlation between the two. Logain has obviously seen enough Ash'aman weaving gateways. He makes the biggest gateways and he's also the strongest Ash'aman. Rand makes a bigger gateway and is also stronger. However, we don't know if Rand's is proportionately more. Rand may be 5% stronger than Logain but because he has a strong Talent, his gateways are 20% larger in area. Conversely, Logain may have a weak Talent. Most Aes Sedai can only make a gateway large enough to put their arms through, but they aren't a hundred times weaker than Rand. The relationship is not completeley linear.
The stronger you are in the Power, the bigger your gateways. There is no doubt of that. But you can't extrapolate strength from a gateway. If Demandred saw Androl from a distance he might think that he is very strong in the Power, but it is a poor assumption which I don't think he'd make in the first place.
And because we're discussing strength in general, remember that it takes roughly as many women to hold Rand and Logain. Their power must be close, especially because Logain tried to break free and five women almost lost the shield.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 18/12/2011 at 07:20:19 AM
Underestimating Forsaken strength
11/12/2011 05:57:22 AM
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Yes, you are probably correct
12/12/2011 06:26:07 AM
- 874 Views
Re: and some of the information given to us is flawed
12/12/2011 07:38:59 PM
- 677 Views
The real question is - What percentage of her full strength did Nynaeve achieve by Book 4?
12/12/2011 08:31:30 PM
- 712 Views
I find that unlikely
12/12/2011 09:28:07 PM
- 680 Views
Easy question for you: Based on the evidence, what percentage of her strength was Nynaeve at in tSR?
13/12/2011 07:09:56 AM
- 649 Views
Well....
13/12/2011 01:12:48 PM
- 717 Views
Well there we have it
13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM
- 718 Views
Re: Well there we have it
13/12/2011 02:06:14 PM
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Re: Well there we have it
13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM
- 684 Views
Alivia may not even be stronger than Nynaeve...
14/12/2011 03:14:06 AM
- 757 Views
That wouldn't surprise me actually *NM*
14/12/2011 07:46:47 AM
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Where would you place Egwene though?
14/12/2011 09:13:46 AM
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Re: Where would you place Egwene though?
14/12/2011 12:53:49 PM
- 665 Views
Bonfire next to a candle indeed. Hehehe...
14/12/2011 05:50:34 PM
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14/12/2011 06:56:40 PM
- 620 Views
The same "step" you refer to seperates Egwene from normal Aes Sedai according to RJ...
14/12/2011 07:14:55 PM
- 649 Views
Yes I would agree with that
14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM
- 808 Views
Alivia with an angreal > > > Cyndane
14/12/2011 08:50:41 PM
- 579 Views
So many instances of logical laziness in that post...
14/12/2011 10:01:45 PM
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Re: So many instances of logical laziness in that post...
15/12/2011 06:16:01 AM
- 597 Views
There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements...
15/12/2011 07:03:01 AM
- 679 Views
Re: There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements...
17/12/2011 10:25:47 AM
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Because a difference of a few % is negligible, and not even worth mentioning...
17/12/2011 10:54:49 AM
- 583 Views
Yes
13/12/2011 04:16:40 PM
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Re: Yes
13/12/2011 04:47:17 PM
- 704 Views
Nah. Beyond the realm of possibility. Sorry,
13/12/2011 05:12:40 PM
- 762 Views
There are a number of comments from Q&As that shows that this is possible and more complex.
13/12/2011 08:23:49 PM
- 728 Views
None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it...
13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM
- 630 Views
But that is my point: it wouldn't be merely force of will.
13/12/2011 09:40:17 PM
- 624 Views
Wait.. I DIDN'T write that!
14/12/2011 03:02:04 AM
- 617 Views
Reply to your question of - "Why use Logain gateway comparison as evidence:"
17/12/2011 03:08:19 PM
- 715 Views
On gateways
18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM
- 706 Views
Might assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha.
19/12/2011 02:40:46 PM
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I suspect he knows that...
19/12/2011 05:53:00 PM
- 614 Views