Active Users:272 Time:04/05/2024 09:38:09 AM
No, I don't agree Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/03/2012 12:11:37 PM
That Rand would use the True Power in those scenes seems to contradict everything it's all about.

The subtext in the scene where he used it was that he had embraced evil and was in communion with Shai'tan himself. He bathed in his presence through him, its power, its ectasy. This was also the state of mind completely opposite to the one Rand experienced at his epiphany, which made him decide to go on and save the world. It was a dark, evil, nihilistic state of mind. Rand can't be in that state of mind and wish saving the world. Through several books, Rand's loss of feelings and humanity has been presented as his great weakness and a grave danger for the world. It's what Min, Cadsuane and co. all feared, going as far as saying a Dragon like that would be as bad as victory of the DO... It goes way back, the first sign of soemthing "wrong" with Rand and his emotions came from Asmodean, who told him it isn't normal that he felt no emotions once he's connected with saidin. That Rand would now need to embrace that evil state of mind at SG is in flagrant contradiction with many of the themes. He couldn't maintain that state and use his bonds to his women or his connection to Perrin Mat. It's a utterly evil, unhuman and nihilistic state of mind.

Another logical problem with the theory is that it manages more or less to explain that Rand can draw the TP from his connection to Moridin. That's all well and good, but it combines this with the fact Rand will use Callandor with two women. We don't even know if it's possible to form a circle using the TP (and personally I highly doubt it... the whole themes surrounding the Shadow is "every one for himself";), but let's say it is for the sake of it. What we know, though, is that a channeler must be placed on the verge of embracing the source to enter a circle. With which two women Rand could possibly do this using the TP? Which two women near Rand could put themselves in the proper evil state of mind to embrace the True Power? Moiraine, Nynaeve, Egwene, Alivia, Cadsuane? LOL! Rand trying to explain to Nynaeve that in order to defeat evil they must agree to fully embrace it and be in communion with Shai'tan himself, and let his essence run through them would make for a rich scene, one that would end with Nynaeve (or Moiraine, Egwene, Cadsuane... take you pick) kicking the hell out of Rand. The whole thematic structure of this doesn't work and contradicts Rand's epiphany. Rand had to become one with Creation and with humanity, which began by fully embracing his feelings for his loved ones and friends. The TP is the opposite, a utter rejection of all that, cold as ice hatred and nihilism.


I don't think I agree with you, Dominic. Let me address some points.

It's more than likely that Rand is drawing the True Power through Moridin. I'd personally say its a certainty. The alternative is that the DO can touch anybody in the world, which I disagree with. I think you have to swear allegiance to him to get that connection to his essence, and considering Rand has not done so, it makes sense that he is drawing through Moridin.

Consider RJ's answer to Asmodean's black cords being severed... That was cutting off his protection from the Taint and also cut off his ability, it was not like stilling them. It was cutting the ties that, most important to him, protected him from the taint on saidin, so he could draw saidin all he wanted to and never worry about the taint. But it was also those ties that represented his ability, or the conduits by which he could draw on the True Power. But it was not his ability to draw; it was not the same thing as stilling or severing; it was more like shielding.... Rand has none of these black cords and thus does not have the ability to draw on the TP.

Brandon answered lots of questions regarding this drawing of the TP to destroy Semirhage, namely...

1. 'Did Moridin sense when Rand channeled the True Power through him?' Our 7th RAFO. But he did say, "We don't know if that is what happened or not, and that might or might not have been Moridin's plan all along. We don't have enough info to decide that yet."

2. Brandon was very careful to state that we cannot assume that Rand drew the True Power through the link with Moridin; nor may we assume the opposite. (In other words, we're not supposed to have enough evidence yet to draw a conclusion.)

3. Does Moridin know that Rand drew the True Power through their connection? (Paraphrase) It's always best to assume that Moridin knows a lot more than he's revealed.

Clearly it's the popular and most likely theory. I also don't understand why you insist on needing an evil mind or evil state of mind to draw on the True Power? The Forsaken are evil and can draw the True Power, but correlation is not causation. It's a physical power and if you have the ability to draw on it, you can draw it no matter what your alignment. It makes as much sense as saying that the Forsaken can no longer channel the One Power because they're so unlike the Creator they could never reach the needed state of mind. They have the ability, and they show no lack of aptitude. Besides, Brandon basically answered this...

Brandon said elsewhere that he can still sense it, which means he can still use it, and simply chooses not to.

It doesn't mean that he won't if he discovers that it will protect his circle from a backblast. It may be the ingredient that Lews Therin did not have access to.

Either way, Brandon's final answer gives me a mild sense of satisfaction that something is up regarding Rand and the TP...

Loialson
Can the True Power can be used against the Dark One?
Brandon Sanderson
That is a big RAFO.

My pet theory thus remains that Rand will link with two women whom he trusts, and use saidin and saidar to make a perfect seal. Rand can draw the TP through Moridin... the DO will either not know this (he may still think that Moridin channeled when Semirhage died... even Demandred said he could be remarkably ignorant of outside events), or will be unwilling to cut off the Nae'blis considering he is his only defense outside the Bore. Rand will use the TP to deflect the DO's retaliation, which will most likely kill him, but avoid a taint on saidin and saidar. The Bore will be sealed. There will be a soul swap between Moridin and Rand at the last moment and Moridin will die in Rand's body, and Rand will live on in Moridin's.

But we'll see I guess....
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 10/03/2012 at 12:14:15 PM
Reply to message
What's so special about Callandor? - 06/03/2012 07:31:40 PM 1998 Views
Honestly, I'm more curious about the "Dragon-only" barrier that surrounded it - 06/03/2012 09:16:15 PM 937 Views
I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 06/03/2012 09:56:02 PM 999 Views
Re: I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 07/03/2012 04:11:21 AM 1076 Views
Re: I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 07/03/2012 10:31:39 AM 899 Views
Re: I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 07/03/2012 10:55:56 PM 935 Views
RJ addressed this ... I had a similar thought several years back and this quote was floated my way - 07/03/2012 04:18:01 AM 943 Views
Hmm.... - 07/03/2012 01:50:07 PM 868 Views
Very similar to what you are getting at as I recall - 07/03/2012 02:00:56 PM 753 Views
Using the True Power to win Tarmon Gai'don goes against every moral in the series. - 07/03/2012 07:00:02 AM 812 Views
actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 10:36:03 AM 712 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 06:02:48 PM 772 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 06:18:16 PM 734 Views
If anything the Dark One WANTS Lews Therin to use the TP *NM* - 07/03/2012 09:43:20 PM 502 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 11:38:56 PM 904 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 10/03/2012 11:52:23 AM 911 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 10/03/2012 06:40:00 PM 763 Views
Have to agree with you on this - 12/03/2012 01:17:06 AM 787 Views
Re: Have to agree with you on this - 12/03/2012 02:36:13 PM 749 Views
Fain has become so much more than human. We have no real sense of the limits of his power - 18/03/2012 11:21:54 PM 635 Views
Shai'tan is the opposite half of the Creator. - 19/03/2012 01:44:31 AM 631 Views
I actually don't see it that way - 19/03/2012 03:37:26 AM 780 Views
depends how you look at it - 19/03/2012 10:41:28 AM 830 Views
Re: depends how you look at it - 19/03/2012 01:07:21 PM 607 Views
Re: depends how you look at it - 19/03/2012 08:12:17 PM 706 Views
Odds are you are correct - 19/03/2012 11:45:03 PM 580 Views
Re: depends how you look at it - 20/03/2012 12:51:48 PM 543 Views
The DO did not not destroy Mashadar alone - 19/03/2012 11:42:21 PM 607 Views
That's not correct. - 20/03/2012 01:55:05 AM 604 Views
Saidin and the True Power both touched Mashadar - 20/03/2012 01:11:17 PM 857 Views
Re: Saidin and the True Power both touched Mashadar - 20/03/2012 04:27:33 PM 532 Views
Re: Saidin and the True Power both touched Mashadar - 20/03/2012 04:57:08 PM 870 Views
You explantion is - 20/03/2012 06:17:52 PM 650 Views
Agreed *NM* - 19/03/2012 11:40:40 PM 324 Views
RJ Quote: - 19/03/2012 06:52:12 PM 584 Views
Exactly - 19/03/2012 08:54:22 PM 896 Views
Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 19/03/2012 11:48:20 PM 594 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 01:06:20 PM 596 Views
My point with imagination is simply that destruction only does 1 thing - 20/03/2012 01:14:55 PM 743 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 04:35:17 PM 590 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 04:59:13 PM 578 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 08:57:35 PM 690 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 21/03/2012 01:09:13 PM 637 Views
Yep . - 21/03/2012 04:51:15 PM 599 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 14/03/2012 12:15:36 PM 693 Views
except the TP is not just a tool. - 14/03/2012 01:41:17 PM 687 Views
No, the Choedan Kal was a tool. - 14/03/2012 05:20:53 PM 530 Views
Sounds like the One Ring - 04/05/2012 03:55:01 PM 730 Views
I totally agree with you on both issues Ben - 07/03/2012 11:44:42 PM 861 Views
No, I don't agree - 10/03/2012 12:11:37 PM 796 Views
That makes no sense... - 10/03/2012 09:21:19 PM 615 Views
Re: That makes no sense... - 11/03/2012 12:25:53 AM 656 Views
Name an existing well that has that much power, though. - 11/03/2012 01:11:40 AM 589 Views
He makes a good point though. - 11/03/2012 05:49:59 AM 637 Views
Yes, but... - 11/03/2012 06:17:25 AM 591 Views
Re: Yes, but... - 11/03/2012 06:47:43 PM 603 Views
I found a couple of quote - 12/03/2012 12:00:36 AM 822 Views
Yeah, I looked through Terez' quote database. - 12/03/2012 12:46:38 AM 628 Views
Re: That makes no sense... - 11/03/2012 08:54:11 AM 774 Views
Re: That makes no sense... - 12/03/2012 02:15:19 PM 848 Views
Re: No, I don't agree - 12/03/2012 01:49:10 PM 814 Views
How the Three can become One using the True Power...mindtraps of Moggy and Cyndane... - 12/03/2012 06:04:22 PM 684 Views
Whether it happens or not, it might explain the choice of mind trap victims - 13/03/2012 06:43:45 AM 788 Views
Re: Whether it happens or not, it might explain the choice of mind trap victims - 13/03/2012 05:19:21 PM 621 Views
That's what I meant - 18/03/2012 11:13:19 PM 721 Views

Reply to Message