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Re: He apparently amended himself the next day... Sidious Send a noteboard - 22/04/2012 08:34:39 AM
... pointing out in his defense he didn't write that chapter, RJ's draft was printed almost as is.

It sounds (it isn't confirmed) he made the same type of mistake when he claimed the bracelet Moiraine was given by the Finns isn't the one she snatched from Lanfear and they forcibly grabbed from her or she would still have it... The description is the same, so it sounds like Brandon, who didn't write those scenes, is simply wrong.

It suggests however that Moiraine's precise strength is irrelevant in what he's written so far and he didn't have to check the notes on that recently. Not surprising, in few scenes in previous books except those involving bikering on AS hierarchy, the actual precise strength of any character is very relevant.

With the angreal, Moiraine is somewhat stronger than she was. In traditional AS thinking however, she's reduced to a nobody if one who has inconveniently grown a legendary status since her "death". The second is more likely to have relevance in AMOL than the first, if you ask me (in the sense that Moiraine's channelling will otherwise have barely changed and she can do pretty much was she could do previously, less than in her more "impressive" (bof...) moments with her statue angreal. If anything, Moiraine's new situation highlights the absurdity of the hierarchy. As long as she has her angreal, she's even more capable with the OP than she used to be, and through her experiences since EOTW she's a far more formidable woman and channeler than she used to be. And yet, the Tower right now would reduce her to a nobody like Siuan at best.

I get the feeling Rand might have some insight to share soon about judging the capabilities of AS on raw strength vs. the AOL AS and their personal angreal that presumably equalized things a lot for the capable but much weaker channelers...

For now we only have the power mad Forsaken as our sample of AOL thinking on raw strength - and even among them none would admit they aren't as good if not better than the others because they're weaker. They're all too aware it's far more a matter of skill and that with an angreal that gap in raw strength no longer exists. It sounds to me likely that in the AOL there were no doubt prejudices among AS based on raw strength, but officially strength didn't play a role in status (the strongest woman we know of was an obscure scientist without even a third name, after all). The Third Age AS have institutionalized/officialized the prejudices and most likely this had a lot to do originally with the loss of the ability to make personal angreal that in effect brought any woman to her optimal strength for her weaving skills and the kind of tasks she was supposed to accomplish.

The Tower likely has a ton of rather naturally talented women, who remain undertrained and underused because they were never or all too rarely loaned an angreal. Who knows what sort of talents and skills even someone like Daigan had in her which she could never exploit or even discover because she didn't have an angreal to channel? It doesn't seem part of WT common practice for women to develop their weaving skills much beyond what their raw strength permits. They see angreal for special tasks or intensive channeling rather than as a device for weaker channelers to use most of the time (not that they have near enough for that). San'angreal it's even worse, they barely ever bring out of the vaults.

In any case, it seems that Moiraine's loss of raw strength is linked to Siuan's, in the sense that Siuan was also a political failure and would have been opposed even if she had retained all her strength. Yet, Egwene learned working with her that Siuan was as competent (or incompetent, let's not get into that debate) after her loss of strength as she was before.

Moiraine's situation is similar yet different. She's seen as a legendary hero and Forsaken-killer among the Blues at least, and beyond. Why should she be turned to little better than an Accepted and not listened to now? Either the Blues will be forced to do that and reject Moiraine to the bottom, or they'll be forced to break with tradition. It's not only Egwene who knows this, the likes of Lelaine and Romanda also knows how wrong they were to consider Siuan a negligible quantity because of her strength.

Moiraine's like the living proof this thinking is absurd, and I think there's a fair chance the main purpose of making her lose her strength is a late game plot device to start seriously eroding this principle among AS at last. Also, she's probably about to reunite with the very rare perhaps nearly unique Aes Sedai who place very little importance on raw strength in how she chooses and organizes her followers: Cadsuane (who however have a low opinion of Moiraine for other reasons... but now has made mistakes with Rand even greater than those she blames Moiraine for and might change her tune). And Rand of course, who isn't likely to consider Moiraine is in any way "reduced".





I don't mind that strength has become less relevant in the series - I just don't like inaccuracies. It's a pet subject of mine and I don't like it when the new author doesn't invest in basic knowledge. It's like writing that Moiraine is Yellow Ajah... I'm sure it's a killer for some people. Brandon is wrong regarding the angreal - it is Lanfear's. I do wonder what Lanfear asked for - she might have been clever enough to ask for an exit much like Mat did, and knowing her affiliation with the Shadow, they executed her (they killed Mat too) knowing she would be reincarnated. Whatever....

I think strength is going to be wholly unimportant in the new AS order, though I think its value will valued much like in the AOL (Balthamel was clearly valued despite his flawed personality). If Elayne learns to make angreal, they could go into mass production. I also think that Moiraine's weakness is a sign that Siuan won't be Healed fully by Flinn or an equivalent.

Moiraine will stand about as low as Daigian, but to be honest, I haven't seen AS deferring for several books (except for the BA... unless the AS are doing it automatically). It seems that AS are shedding a lot of their petty habits, albeit grudgingly.

I don't honestly think that Moiraine will ever be silenced due to her weakness. Its possible that it may be enforced initially but I think that Rand/LTT will step in and say that it never occurred in his Age and that it is a rather scandalous and barbaric tactic (much like allowing physical strength to determine your public voice). It will probably fall away after that.

I think the angreal is merely for combat purposes so that Moiraine will be able to play a relevant part in the Last Battle. She's probably as strong as Cadsuane with her angreal, so we can still observe a few bling moments from her.
Wheel of Time board admin
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Very interesting QA with Brandon - 20/04/2012 11:19:02 PM 2803 Views
I'm sad - 21/04/2012 12:00:33 AM 1168 Views
Ha! Not even RJ could keep up with the world he created! *NM* - 21/04/2012 01:01:29 AM 459 Views
I found it painful to read - 21/04/2012 09:53:31 AM 1031 Views
Do you find that surprising? - 21/04/2012 02:52:47 PM 882 Views
I find it disappointing - 22/04/2012 08:09:10 AM 803 Views
How would obscure crap screw up the story? - 21/04/2012 06:51:27 PM 934 Views
He apparently amended himself the next day... - 21/04/2012 08:00:01 PM 1317 Views
"Brandon: Umm, when did Perrin meet Masema?" ughhh facepalm *NM* - 22/04/2012 02:45:45 AM 526 Views
Re: He apparently amended himself the next day... - 22/04/2012 08:34:39 AM 984 Views
I find your pain highly amusing. *NM* - 23/04/2012 04:50:09 AM 563 Views
I'll make my pain yours *NM* - 23/04/2012 02:34:31 PM 473 Views
Sid.. Sid... Sid... *sigh*... *facepalm* *NM* - 24/04/2012 11:09:22 PM 535 Views
Re: Very interesting QA with Brandon - 22/04/2012 02:53:38 AM 960 Views
Re: Very interesting QA with Brandon - 22/04/2012 03:10:21 PM 1023 Views
Re: Very interesting QA with Brandon - 23/04/2012 05:48:18 AM 845 Views
This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 23/04/2012 09:50:51 AM 1171 Views
Re: This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 23/04/2012 02:39:30 PM 970 Views
Agreed.. - 23/04/2012 03:22:05 PM 935 Views
Re: Agreed.. - 24/04/2012 05:47:22 AM 851 Views
It's just their pet subject. - 24/04/2012 06:01:24 PM 938 Views
I think you may be giving RJ more credit than his due here - 24/04/2012 10:35:28 PM 964 Views
Re: I think you may be giving RJ more credit than his due here - 25/04/2012 05:02:04 AM 834 Views
We are in very close alignment - 25/04/2012 01:27:37 PM 776 Views
Re: This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 24/04/2012 05:46:03 AM 880 Views
Re: This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 24/04/2012 08:10:15 AM 956 Views
You replied far more diplomatically than I would have... - 24/04/2012 10:10:57 AM 861 Views
It's got little to do with obsession... - 25/04/2012 01:20:48 AM 871 Views
Re: It's got little to do with obsession... - 25/04/2012 05:05:40 PM 881 Views
Re: It's got little to do with obsession... - 27/04/2012 12:58:36 AM 815 Views
Question about TGS and ToM: - 27/04/2012 02:20:34 AM 782 Views
Very similar to you - 27/04/2012 09:50:52 PM 902 Views
Are there plans for rewrites / reordering of the books? - 29/04/2012 01:17:48 PM 849 Views
of course there's no plan - 30/04/2012 06:15:49 AM 1228 Views
I didn't know Harriet had such a big role in this - 30/04/2012 10:57:14 PM 760 Views
She does - 01/05/2012 03:52:40 PM 854 Views
Egwene... - 27/04/2012 05:41:13 AM 813 Views
Re: Egwene... - 27/04/2012 09:30:32 PM 824 Views
Re: Egwene... - 28/04/2012 09:44:43 AM 799 Views
I don't find it all that surprising - 28/04/2012 03:56:41 PM 742 Views
Re: I don't find it all that surprising - 29/04/2012 08:07:55 AM 751 Views
Agreed - 29/04/2012 01:52:06 PM 710 Views
Re: I don't find it all that surprising - 30/04/2012 07:54:14 AM 678 Views
I suspect Cadsuane will die before that happens - 30/04/2012 07:06:04 PM 844 Views
Re: I suspect Cadsuane will die before that happens - 30/04/2012 08:36:44 PM 708 Views
Cadsuane shouldn't reswear the oaths - 30/04/2012 10:43:32 PM 822 Views
Apparenly not - 01/05/2012 04:26:08 PM 687 Views
Not sure Cadsuane will ever be reigned in by anyone - 01/05/2012 01:18:44 AM 715 Views
Re: Not sure Cadsuane will ever be reigned in by anyone - 01/05/2012 08:17:49 PM 1063 Views
As usual we are in pretty close alignment - 02/05/2012 04:29:20 AM 911 Views
Re: Egwene... - 30/04/2012 07:41:11 AM 689 Views
Re: Egwene... - 01/05/2012 07:10:35 PM 768 Views
Re: Egwene... - 01/05/2012 10:51:09 PM 1011 Views
I think there is a lot of TAR coming up - 05/05/2012 05:13:18 AM 670 Views
Probably - 05/05/2012 06:52:57 PM 795 Views
Thanks! This fits nicely with my thoughts... - 28/04/2012 10:05:27 PM 844 Views
Re: Thanks! This fits nicely with my thoughts... - 30/04/2012 03:08:57 PM 826 Views
the angreal part bothered me way more - 28/04/2012 10:51:46 AM 765 Views
what's MAFO? *NM* - 28/04/2012 07:01:52 PM 475 Views
Maria (Simmons) And Find Out - 29/04/2012 02:07:19 AM 733 Views

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