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Probably DomA Send a noteboard - 05/05/2012 06:52:57 PM
what with the remaining Dream Spike sitting on the BT I have a feeling we are going to see a lot more TAR action.


Especially as it might not remain on the BT, or just the BT. I get the feeling it might later be extended to the south part Caemlyn (that where the BT is close to, and it's the part with the Inner city, palace and military compound) or be moved to Caemlyn, a much better place for the Shadow to set itself up as it would then protect a Waygate.

I wonder it that is going to set us up for some TAR resolution ... otherwise it kind of feels like TAR iwas just some random astral plane that served very little purpose other than as a fancy meeting place for a handful of characters.

I don't rule that out ... but I would be somewhat surprised if RJ spent so much time building out the TAR world and then didn't use it in some manner in the LB ... also RJ clearly has a role in mind for Egwene and Perrin in the LB that seems likely to include TAR at some point.


I'm not sure "resolution" is the proper word - there doesn't seem much to "resolve" about TAR itself, which is an element of worlbuilding and as such will probably keep a great deal of its mysteries.

But TAR action/relevance, to which tons of episodes, two main characters, a whole aspect of the training of both these two, the WO, the wolves and three Forsaken all built to, that's another matter.

TAR's role will be either during the endgame (SG) or during the LB War or both. Most likely both, I would say, but perhaps more minor than many think for the endgame (not that I rule the opposite out, mind you. The main skill of the woman lead of the series, one ta'veren and the wolves.. a great role is perfectly possible too).

It might be argued that TAR has served its purpose in both Egwene's and Perrin's storylines, as it did after all play a part already in the finale (the fact that finale was split over three books is immaterial, of course, as to RJ who conceived it it was all part of the same finale).

But I tend to agree with you. What we got in TGS/TOM seemed far more like a final set up than anything, the first step of Egwene and Perrin working together. The "real" dreamspike to take care of is the one at the Black Tower. The wolves were peripheral only at this point, there only to surround Rand during his epiphany.

RJ has slowly built up a "TAR army" of wolves and they haven't come into play at this point. They are still just gathering. Egwene's connection with the army of wolves goes all the way back to EOTW. The wolves wanted Perrin to come with them to go fight the Shadow/Shadowspawn but Elyas said the wolves were ready to accept Egwene among them too. Perrin refused to run with the wolves to hunt down the Trollocs and Fades but accepted Elyas and them escorted them south. Egwene didn't want the wolves to come, but she was forced to accept it (and they ended up saving her life). Then the ravens forced them to take shelter in Artur Hawkwing's hand where the WC captured them.

This is in the section of EOTW were many of what I call the "patterns" for the LB are found (the earliest patterns, there's more variations of those patterns playing out in later books. Those in EOTW are some of the clearest, because so many elements were not yet in play that RJ could easily disguise the elements. In the later series, the characters were sometimes involved with the real issues instead of other stuff representing the real issues, so RJ could no longer be too blatant about the repeating elements).

This section of EOTW is when Tom and Mat debate how best to find Moiraine (they decided they've lost them and they can't, which is a mirror. In the finale they did go after Moiraine) and head for Whitebridge (and see Ghenji in the distance). Whitebridge is a stand-in for Tar Valon. It's when RJ described Rand as feeling as if iron bands (the sad bracelets) held him and was convinced a Trolloc was about to kill him and his friends (it wanted to capture him) and Rand reached to the OP unknowingly and a few days later became sick and delirious, until he climbed to the top of the mast (Dragonmount) where his friends had to convinced him to come down slowly to safety (he was delirious and in danger of falling to his death). And another important point may be the fact Mat starts to struggle with Shadar Logoth, which could suggest there will be a Mat-Fain connection. Meanwhile, Moiraine and Nynaeve were coming to a modus vivendi to work together (a very conflicted one at that point, but I suspect that's it's the fact Nynaeve and Moiraine chose to collaborate until they had reached their goal, finding the others at that point, that's relevant to the "pattern";).

The elements that will come together for either or both of Egwene and Perrin would thus be: the Whitecloaks (achieved at this point, but the relevance of the connection between Egwene and Galad has not played out yet), the wolves, the resolution of the Seanchan storyline (both Perrin and Egwene are tied to that, it seems.. the Shadow forces Egwene to take shelter in the hand of Hawkwing vs the Dream with the Seanchan woman "we must help each other" etc.), the Tinkers and/or Aiel - and tel'aran'rhiod. Both Perrin and Egwene are haunted by nightmares during this whole storyline. Egwene's are just plain nightmares at this point since the TAR storyline hasn't started, but that's no more relevant than the fact it was a Wolf-like Trolloc and not Semirhage threatening Rand's life on the boat. Another possible connection: the matter of the Ogier (the abandonned stedding, an obvious mirror). Among the symbols found in this storyline was the ruined Tower seen in the far distance, the ruins of ancient fortresses and villages, and Egwene's repeated incapacity at starting a fire (a flame. In her storyline fires are symbols for the Amyrlin Seat) when it had been so easy before = symbolic of her difficulties to become the Amyrlin again (beyond the symbolism, RJ even found a way to nod more literally to the fact she had lost the OP in EOTW with the forkroot), and the incapacity to find the right path (valid for both Perrin/Egwene's TGS/TOM storylines), trapped in the wilderness and heading straight for an unseen impassable wall (the Spine of the World in EOTW, rather than Caemlyn or Tar Valon they wished to head to (either one or the other). For Egwene it became conquering TV in TGS, for Perrin it was reaching the others in Caemlyn in TOM).

For those who doubt the relevance or existence of these "patterns"/story canvas repeating through the story, remember how these same EOTW elements reformed the pattern in TGS/TOM, in a game of parallels (similar to what happened in EOTW) and mirrors (opposite outcomes/relevane to what happened in EOTW). Perrin making an alliance with Tylee and the wolves to defeat Aiel who had rejected their ways (a repeat of the Tinkers split, but in mirror as the Shaido rejected the fact they've once followed the Way), nearly got killed by Aram, gave up his axe and forged his hammer (all foreshadowed in these EOTW patterns), and nearly got captured and killed by WC in the Hawkwing's capital (the middle of the Seanchan conquest in the later story) before he finally made an alliance with Galad, whom he saved.

Egwene being attacked by the Seanchan at the Tower. She had had a dream of ravens attacking the Flame. Right before she finally reunited the broken Tower, she returned to a Tinker camp, and sat in front of a roaring flame, reminescing about what happened in EOTW, and finding the final path to her victory.... Then Egwene and Perrin reunited briefly (with Hopper again) to face the Shadow (the wolf-killer Slayer replacing the wolf-killing WC from EOTW, and Mesaana and the BA replacing the Shadowspawn/ravens of EOTW). They had nightmares in EOTW, they now fought these "nightmares" in TAR. The Tinkers are now the ones "sheltering in the hand of Hawkwing", with the Seanchan in Ebou Dar. The Ogier have retired from the story to discuss abandonning humanity by opening the BoT or staying to fight TG, so the "abandonned stedding" image from EOTW is present by their absence (but is referred to a the opening of TOM). The "abandonned stedding" is likely to become a mirror later, at least we all expect Loial to succeed, but at the moment it's rather a parallel, with the Ogier absent.

That's very clearly (to me at least) the same "story pattern", but that's clearly just a variation again, it's not the final pattern for all these elements. Too much is left unresolved with them.

A Perrin/Egwene/Wolves "frontline" at some point during TG is definitely in the cards and all those together can only mean TAR. Of course that will probably include the Aiel WO as well, but I doubt Egwene and Perrin's connection to the Aiel & Tinkers will stop at that, and Egwene's "alliance" with the female channelers. As leader of the AS it's fairly obvious what Egwene's connection to the neo-da'shain may be, but it's not as clear for Perrin except we know the connection exist and will somehow play out (it's ruled out he will embrace the Way of the Leaf. Brandon said he wanted him to do that - that it seemed logical to him he would, but Harriet overruled that. There remains the fact to Brandon this would have made sense with the rest of what happens to Perrin in AMOL, and there's the viewing of Min with blooming trees for Perrin - indicating either an Ogier or Leaf connection). And it sounds like resolution with the Seanchan will be in Egwene's lap (with Perrin, likely Mat as well), which sounds very logical since Rand said in TOM he didn't intend to keep leading, politically nor militarily. He did try and hard, and he failed spectacularly (and is kind of "burned" with Tuon now). . He is out of time now, so it will fall to the political leaders that Egwene seems set to lead to pick up where he left and solve it, or decide not to and risk having the Seanchan in their back and the Shadow ahead. In regard with Aviendha's "epiphany" about what the war with the Seanchan leads to, Egwene's ties with the WO becomes convenient, as is Mat's knowledge of Tuon, and Tylee's ties to Perrin. And you know, the real big obstacle even if Egwene manages to overcome her hatred of the Seanchan, and the WT's hatred of the Seanchan, is Elayne and Andor. Elayne and Egwene are heading for a clash of some sort, one perhaps likely to follow the one which happened between Siuan and Egwene, with Egwene putting Elayne in her place and there are limits to how she can let the fact they're friends play in her decisions as Amyrlin . It's been several books in preparation. RJ even found a clever way to make Elayne a powerful Aes Sedai while preventing her from being able to join the Green for TG, justifying her to play a political role instead. In the "historical patterns", there's always been a conflict between the Amyrlin in place and a powerful sister. That sister is Elayne. Egwene has had long to endure Elayne overstepping herself.. the bargain with the SF and so on. Later, Elayne used her responsability to Andor to rationalize the fact as AS she must follow Egwene's authority, but not as Queen. But with small steps, she's went quite beyong that. In KOD, it was just usurping a symbolic prerogative of the Amyrlin by taking it upon herself to strip the BA of their AS status (by taking their rings) and holding them captive as Queen when she should have reported their capture to the rebel Hall. Then on her watch if not under her authority (wouldn't matter much to the Tower) the Windfinders were forced to use the OP as a weapon. She managed to wriggle out of passing the AS test and swearing the Three Oaths. And then she made her "worst" violation of Egwene's authority yet by striking as Queen of Andor a deal that would have women Egwene has already announced to the Hall she intended to become an organization in which AS would retire from public life to provide very visible OP services to the nation of Andor (in violation of AS professed neutrality), which conflicts totally with Egwene's vision (women in the Kin wouldn't be held by the Oaths and active with the OP in society). Egwene managed to rein in Nynaeve, but Elayne has very divided notions regarding the Amyrlin's authority over her, and even challenges her authority over women channellers. They will no doubt find a way to avoid falling apart for good, but all the elements are in place for a conflict than will strain their friendship. I get the feeling Elayne may be the magnet around which those refusing to find a way to peace with the Seanchan will gather. Egwene will come around, by sheer pragmatism: they have Travelling, the WT is in peril, the world is in peril, if a way to avoid a general war with the Seanchan is not found and fast. Her dreams are showing her a path she detests for sure, but she'll have to come around. The Seanchan having Travelling is likely to play some role, perhaps as important as the LB looming, in triggering the final reunion of male and female Aes Sedai.

It's rather Elayne, who in TOM was preparing for total war with the Seanchan, who I suspect a lot will want to use the discovery sul'dam can channel to destroy the Seanchan leadership. RJ even foreshadowed ironically Elayne's role in the Seanchan conflict by making Elayne, Elayne herself, be the infamous "Aes Sedai mass destruction weapon" that so frightened the Seanchan and played in their decision to attack Tar Valon. The other ironic foreshadowing is that the Seanchan's second target is right next to her capital, and of course Elayne is an Aes Sedai Queen, what the Seanchan fear and hate the most.

Elayne taking this stance or as Queen of Andor proposing this option to try destroying the Seanchan leadership from the inside might threaten Egwene's alliance of channelers and position of ruler above the rulers, as Elayne is the world's most powerful ruler with a mini-Empire of her own now, and the stance of the female channeler groups is likely to be very divided. If Egwene changes her own stance, part of the Tower will not be pleased with her position (not all, though), the Windfinders are likely to oppose the position of seeking a truce, and the WO are a big open question, depending if Aviendha is back and if she will convince them or not. Elayne is starting to see herself as a new Artur Hawkwing, she's not that far from taking stance where she'd depict herself as the alternative to Tuon. She's even made decision that will lead some in the Hall to think the Amyrlin has to bring her to heel, and the sooner the better.. a bit like Hawkwing has done in his early years which sparked the conflict with Bonwhin. Elayne may be close to becoming a temptation for the Aes Sedai who dream of the Tower controlling the nations. It's too late for that to play out, but in other circumstances Elayne would likely have become a political threat to Egwene's position as Amyrlin. The more megalomaniac of Aes Sedai would get dizzy over the concept of an Amyrlin ruling directly an alliance of all nations.... as long as Elayne can be controlled.

Some nations like Tear and Illian are likely none too pleased with this "greater Andor" already. How Tenobia will react to Faile's deal with Elayne is also an unknown, as is the Borderlands' reaction to the favorable position Saldaea may gain. Elayne's recent moves just before Merrilor marks the end of the High Lords's hopes for influence in Cairhien (and more to the point, their hopes for the economic advantages gained from that influence), and as long as the Seanchan remain where they are, Elayne now controls all the trade routes between north and south ( and has made inways with Saldaea) roads and seafaring routes alike, and she's just made a deal for Travelling services, which means the South and Borderlands would now need to rely on the goodwill of Tar Valon (or strike similar deals with the Seafolk, WO or Asha'man) to provide the same services so they can escape Elayne's control over trade.

I wonder a lot if Roedran won't simply deal with the Seanchan and switch to their side in fear of the imminent invasion, bringing his armies and the SeanchanMs on Elayne's doorstep, if not right in the heart of an Andor which capital is in the hands of the Shadow.

I get the feeling the "peacemakers" preventing the worse of the Elayne vs. Egwene conflict (after it really erupts or before it can really erupt) will, ironically, be the Aiel, and Aviendha is likely to be the one preventing Elayne's and Egwene's friendship from collapsing. Perrin and Mat may also play their part. Perrin has the experience that some of the Seanchan can be reasonnable, even to the point of striking alliances with "free" channellers to face a common greater enemy, and he has a contact for possible negotiations. Ironically, Mat is the one who knows Tuon is determined, obstinate and immovable regarding Aes Sedai, and when challenged about her own ability as sul'dam, she had a counter ready. Egwene, for all the prejudices, knows all too well avoiding a conflict may the better option at this point, while Elayne is perhaps the most likely to want to try destroying Tuon's power and the sul'dam/damane system.

Another potential elements to precipitate a crisis aside from the Seanchan, something that might play as early as Merrilor, is the major attack of the Shadow on Caemlyn, and the BT conflict. Not sure the national armies will be so eager to go save Caemlyn or reconquer it for Elayne rather than run to protect their own cities from similar attacks, and they'll all want their share of the AS/Asha'man forces, send too many to save Caemlyn and they'll soon say of course the Tower wants to save their little Aes Sedai Queendom. Not sure either how Elayne will like the secondary role Egwene and co. (Logain?) might very well leave her in the decisions regarding the BT either. Elayne already considers the BT to be an Andoran problem, but she's made several moves that might induce Egwene to soon put an halter on the power the Queen of Andor imagines she wields in WT affairs. So far Elayne has strictly used her dual allegiance to the profit of Andor or her personal profit, often without even a thought for the consequences her moves could have on the WT.

Back to the patterns:



In some iterations of those patterns for Perrin/Egwene, Lanfear aka Moonhunter was involved. Graendal said both Cyndane/Moghedien worked to fulfill the orders of Moridin about Perrin/Mat. It was most likely her (not Moghedien, who we know was involved in Caemlyn and most likely was thus the one trying to get her agents to assassinat Mat in TOM), trying to achieve the same to Perrin, thus as many suspect she was likely the one who drove Masema insane, and decided to make use of him for her attempt to get Perrin killed. It appears neither Moghedien/Cyndane were allowed by Moridin to strike themselves (or they chose not to, possibly) as both used agents. Cyndane lost her agent near Perrin and she has other tasks for Moridin like organizing DF for the LB, so Moridin after her failure with Rand involved Graendal who had just become available.

It sounds very likely Cyndane will be tasked to take care of Egwene/Perrin or will in some other way get involved in their storylines. It will resulted from the fact Egwene and Perrin have defeated Mesaana and Slayer (and a dreamspike) in TAR and Moridin will pick the "Queen of TAR" to deal with those two.

Moghedien was once infiltrated in LTT's État-Major, and ironically (since she's a coward) she's the one with parralels to a Celtic War goddess (who is also a raven), a parallel which completes the ones of Tuon and Mat. Some involvement of Elayne is quite possible. Moghedien is far less likely to get involved in TAR much, because Mat is protected by his medallion. It sounds like it's her skills at running networks of agents and at infiltration that might be what plays out during the LB. I guess Mat's vicinity will be a very dangerous place as soon as he show military skills against Demandred. Demandred will be his foe on the battlefield, but Moridin will still have Moghedien try to assassinate him. That fits her Arthurian parallel as well, she's supposed to be the viper that defeats a whole army by killing the right guy at the righ time (it precipitates a calamitous battle).

To get back to TAR, another major TAR element is the Horn of Valere. I think ift TAR has to play a role in the endgame, the moment of the Horn's sounding, when reality and TAR seem to merge so the Heroes can fight in the real world (but appeared able to deny the reality of the OP and weapons...) is the best window of opportunity for the dreamwalkers to use. At least, it the only obvious one, which of course doesn't mean it will be used and there are not some "hidden" ones we won't see coming. But Brandon has posted on Twitter a puzzling comment that he was surprised to find out in the notes the Horn didn't work/didn't do what he thought it did.



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Very interesting QA with Brandon - 20/04/2012 11:19:02 PM 2803 Views
I'm sad - 21/04/2012 12:00:33 AM 1167 Views
Ha! Not even RJ could keep up with the world he created! *NM* - 21/04/2012 01:01:29 AM 458 Views
I found it painful to read - 21/04/2012 09:53:31 AM 1030 Views
Do you find that surprising? - 21/04/2012 02:52:47 PM 881 Views
I find it disappointing - 22/04/2012 08:09:10 AM 803 Views
How would obscure crap screw up the story? - 21/04/2012 06:51:27 PM 934 Views
He apparently amended himself the next day... - 21/04/2012 08:00:01 PM 1317 Views
"Brandon: Umm, when did Perrin meet Masema?" ughhh facepalm *NM* - 22/04/2012 02:45:45 AM 525 Views
Re: He apparently amended himself the next day... - 22/04/2012 08:34:39 AM 983 Views
I find your pain highly amusing. *NM* - 23/04/2012 04:50:09 AM 563 Views
I'll make my pain yours *NM* - 23/04/2012 02:34:31 PM 473 Views
Sid.. Sid... Sid... *sigh*... *facepalm* *NM* - 24/04/2012 11:09:22 PM 535 Views
Re: Very interesting QA with Brandon - 22/04/2012 02:53:38 AM 960 Views
Re: Very interesting QA with Brandon - 22/04/2012 03:10:21 PM 1023 Views
Re: Very interesting QA with Brandon - 23/04/2012 05:48:18 AM 844 Views
This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 23/04/2012 09:50:51 AM 1171 Views
Re: This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 23/04/2012 02:39:30 PM 970 Views
Agreed.. - 23/04/2012 03:22:05 PM 935 Views
Re: Agreed.. - 24/04/2012 05:47:22 AM 851 Views
It's just their pet subject. - 24/04/2012 06:01:24 PM 936 Views
I think you may be giving RJ more credit than his due here - 24/04/2012 10:35:28 PM 963 Views
Re: I think you may be giving RJ more credit than his due here - 25/04/2012 05:02:04 AM 834 Views
We are in very close alignment - 25/04/2012 01:27:37 PM 775 Views
Re: This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 24/04/2012 05:46:03 AM 880 Views
Re: This certainly makes a mockery of a lot that us 20-year long readers of Wot used to hold dear... - 24/04/2012 08:10:15 AM 956 Views
You replied far more diplomatically than I would have... - 24/04/2012 10:10:57 AM 861 Views
It's got little to do with obsession... - 25/04/2012 01:20:48 AM 870 Views
Re: It's got little to do with obsession... - 25/04/2012 05:05:40 PM 880 Views
Re: It's got little to do with obsession... - 27/04/2012 12:58:36 AM 814 Views
Question about TGS and ToM: - 27/04/2012 02:20:34 AM 782 Views
Very similar to you - 27/04/2012 09:50:52 PM 901 Views
Are there plans for rewrites / reordering of the books? - 29/04/2012 01:17:48 PM 848 Views
of course there's no plan - 30/04/2012 06:15:49 AM 1227 Views
I didn't know Harriet had such a big role in this - 30/04/2012 10:57:14 PM 760 Views
She does - 01/05/2012 03:52:40 PM 853 Views
Egwene... - 27/04/2012 05:41:13 AM 812 Views
Re: Egwene... - 27/04/2012 09:30:32 PM 823 Views
Re: Egwene... - 28/04/2012 09:44:43 AM 799 Views
I don't find it all that surprising - 28/04/2012 03:56:41 PM 742 Views
Re: I don't find it all that surprising - 29/04/2012 08:07:55 AM 750 Views
Agreed - 29/04/2012 01:52:06 PM 710 Views
Re: I don't find it all that surprising - 30/04/2012 07:54:14 AM 678 Views
I suspect Cadsuane will die before that happens - 30/04/2012 07:06:04 PM 844 Views
Re: I suspect Cadsuane will die before that happens - 30/04/2012 08:36:44 PM 707 Views
Cadsuane shouldn't reswear the oaths - 30/04/2012 10:43:32 PM 822 Views
Apparenly not - 01/05/2012 04:26:08 PM 686 Views
Not sure Cadsuane will ever be reigned in by anyone - 01/05/2012 01:18:44 AM 715 Views
Re: Not sure Cadsuane will ever be reigned in by anyone - 01/05/2012 08:17:49 PM 1063 Views
As usual we are in pretty close alignment - 02/05/2012 04:29:20 AM 910 Views
Re: Egwene... - 30/04/2012 07:41:11 AM 688 Views
Re: Egwene... - 01/05/2012 07:10:35 PM 768 Views
Re: Egwene... - 01/05/2012 10:51:09 PM 1011 Views
I think there is a lot of TAR coming up - 05/05/2012 05:13:18 AM 670 Views
Probably - 05/05/2012 06:52:57 PM 795 Views
Thanks! This fits nicely with my thoughts... - 28/04/2012 10:05:27 PM 843 Views
Re: Thanks! This fits nicely with my thoughts... - 30/04/2012 03:08:57 PM 825 Views
the angreal part bothered me way more - 28/04/2012 10:51:46 AM 765 Views
what's MAFO? *NM* - 28/04/2012 07:01:52 PM 474 Views
Maria (Simmons) And Find Out - 29/04/2012 02:07:19 AM 733 Views

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