Active Users:561 Time:02/08/2025 03:44:30 PM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM

If you recall, my whole premise here is that one of the WoTs major themes is good people coming to epically bad ends because they believe everyone else too dishonest/stupid to be trusted with any pivotal part in saving the world.

Then I must ask you to exclude Egwene from this list:

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.
Even the fate of the world.

Like a creeping fungus, like insects in a swarm, the clouds had closed up above Tar Valon. The sunlight's visit had been welcome, but brief.
The tea was back to tasting stale again. The grain stores they'd discovered were running out, and the next sacks to come in had been filled with weevils. The Land is One with the Dragon.

"Yes," Nynaeve said. "The Aiel say he's embraced death."
"I've heard that from them, too," Egwene said. "But I looked into his eyes, and something else has changed, something inexplicable. The man I saw . . ."
"He didn't seem like one to destroy Natrin's Barrow?" Siuan shivered as she thought of that.
"The man I saw wouldn't need to destroy such a place," Egwene said. "Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was"

An aspect of that is that by restricting that to the Nialls, Elaidas and Siuans of Randland makes it harder to catch, and that subjecting even (especially) a protagonist to it drives the message home nicely. Egwenes case is particularly striking; she even thinks the DRAGON REBORN incompetent to act without her hands firmly on the reins (regardless of trivial things like 3000 years of prophecy.)

Quote for me the Prophesy which says, "The Dragon is always right. Do not oppose him! Shut the f*ck up, and bow to his every whim!". By your yardstick, Nynaeve was wrong to stop Rand from destroying Far Madding. Cadsuane was wrong to try and change the way Rand viewed his role. Perrin was wrong to question Rand's treatment of the Aes Sedai. Logain was wrong to not accept Rand's word that Taim was alright.

Each of these people disagreed with Rand greatly. Some of them took extreme measures to make him change his mind. Do you think they're all headed for a fall?

That approach is only effective precisely BECAUSE she is not evil. If she does experience an epic fall, being turned to the Shadow is likely to figure prominently in that, given how often the subject has come up around her in the series.

It has come up once. And in that foreshadowing, she blasted through those seeking to turn her and merrily went on her way to rescue Rand...

However, it would not be that she falls because she is evil, but that she is turned to evil because she falls. She would make a pretty "bad ass" Dreadlord at the Last Battle; what if her character development has set her up for THAT...?

Except there is no evidence for that. Save your claim of "repeated" (but actually a single half-baked) foreshadowings of her being turned, there has been no indication this is happening. Not to mention that Brandon's statement that at her current state, her character has been fully developed to be bad ass in the Last Battle. If there was a fall from grace and a forced turning to come, he wouldn't have said she is done developing and ready for the end game!
Like I say, I think it is even money, but dismissing it out of hand based on the evidence we have strikes me as presumptuous.

It is not even money. Dude, you're blatantly ignoring the author's own words on the subject. That doesn't make it "even money", that makes it "desperate clinging to biased position despite facts to the contrary".
Reply to message
The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Nate - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 5139 Views
It's pretty damn cool. Stephen - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2822 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Artsapat - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2911 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Nate - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2903 Views
the pit of doom is hot alanna aes sedai - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2382 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. Tweak - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2940 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency LadyLorraine - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2824 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. Vidarfe - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2661 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* HousealThor - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 2078 Views
*NM* Tweak - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1997 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Bored - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2559 Views
I really like it LadyLorraine - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2850 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong HyogaRott - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2570 Views
something like this? guttering flame - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 3166 Views
well, for one, I didn't say it was "wrong" so don't jump down my throat. LadyLorraine - 04/05/2012 10:03:06 PM 2728 Views
If you think that was jumping down your throat... seriously... *NM* HyogaRott - 07/05/2012 01:51:45 PM 2203 Views
when I initially read it, it came off that way. I apologize if I misinterpreted you. *NM* LadyLorraine - 09/05/2012 04:58:13 PM 2166 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) djwilson300 - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2572 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. LadyLorraine - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2555 Views
Me, too! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2636 Views
Well... DomA - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2941 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn HyogaRott - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2626 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn NaClH2O - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2675 Views
Yeah... DomA - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2611 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? Onarishma - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 4193 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. alanna aes sedai - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3453 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... fionwe1987 - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2735 Views
She is DomA - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2827 Views
I don't know... fionwe1987 - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2544 Views
Re: I don't know... DomA - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2761 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... fionwe1987 - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2439 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" Joel - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2668 Views
What books have you been reading? fionwe1987 - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2695 Views
Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year Joel - 11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM 2497 Views
I agree DomA - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2799 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. Joel - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2743 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... fionwe1987 - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2438 Views
Agreed Sidious - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2546 Views
Exactly... fionwe1987 - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2498 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. Joel - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2550 Views
fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2463 Views
Re- Joel - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2934 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Joel - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2541 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2479 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. Joel - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2657 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Sidious - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2611 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Joel - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2433 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. Joel - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2640 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2848 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. DomA - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2607 Views
Yeah... fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2625 Views
Re: Yeah... DomA - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2658 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. Joel - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2584 Views
Look at their foreheads Tor - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2675 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn DomA - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2632 Views
I could be wrong, but I believe Rand used Calandor as a sword in the Stone. HyogaRott - 03/05/2012 08:06:45 PM 2447 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too Sidious - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2469 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too DomA - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2624 Views
Idea Timthetrolloc - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2608 Views
Re: Idea Vidarfe - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2591 Views
Or.... Artsapat - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2478 Views
This would explain the hidden hand PatAtt - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2618 Views
That's a good point. Nate - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2767 Views
Nah... HyogaRott - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2674 Views
Can you draw a blade guttering flame - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2611 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard HyogaRott - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2521 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too Sidious - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1683 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too DomA - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2748 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too Sidious - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2515 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too DomA - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2758 Views
Thanks! *NM* Sidious - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2479 Views
I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. Joel - 11/05/2012 01:35:34 PM 2616 Views
Re: I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. DomA - 11/05/2012 04:06:50 PM 2419 Views
Egwene-Mat... fionwe1987 - 11/05/2012 09:05:07 PM 2527 Views
Re: Egwene-Mat... DomA - 12/05/2012 05:31:29 AM 2910 Views
Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it. Joel - 13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM 2795 Views
The Seanchan assassin... fionwe1987 - 13/05/2012 11:47:53 AM 2446 Views
You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. Joel - 14/05/2012 02:08:26 AM 2486 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 04:08:11 AM 2524 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. Joel - 21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM 2552 Views
looks a little 'naughty pirate novel' but is pretty fricken awesome! *NM* Yunalesca - 03/05/2012 06:50:42 PM 2042 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Gartax - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2468 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Nate - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2618 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* DomA - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 2022 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* Gartax - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2391 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine Skeeve the Great - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2563 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... DomA - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2713 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... Skeeve the Great - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3533 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* Milla - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 2073 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* mogi67 - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 2129 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... wolfsister - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2687 Views
No Maidens of the Spear Knightscape - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2669 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear HyogaRott - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2775 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* Onarishma - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1933 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* Artsapat - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2185 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* guttering flame - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 1052 Views
Right, my mistake. Then she cut her hair to make it straight again. *NM* Artsapat - 08/05/2012 08:54:33 PM 2080 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* Onarishma - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2168 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: Nate - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2821 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* Skeeve the Great - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 2117 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* guttering flame - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 2044 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? Joel - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2584 Views
It's Michael Whelan's signature. I looked it up and found it in a different book cover *NM* Deadsy - 11/05/2012 07:05:22 AM 2036 Views
agreed Sidious - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2666 Views
Partially concur HyogaRott - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2451 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* Deadsy - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 992 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted LadyLorraine - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1544 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too Yunalesca - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1497 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers A Deathwatch Guard - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1291 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes