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Re: Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" DomA Send a noteboard - 19/05/2012 12:31:10 AM
Strikes me that had Aran'gar effectively compelled Egwene she would not have gotten out of trouble and been given a new assignment. Instead she had to spend months sleeping next to Egwene simply to mess with her Dreaming ability ... If Aran'gar had more skill with Compulsion she would have done the job and moved on ... An effectively Compelled Amyrlin would have been a powerful tool for the Shadow.


Except of course all the examples of Compulsion but Graendal's are nowhere this effective. Moghedien herself said it best: "pity it's so limited".

Even Graendal keeps most of her compelled subjects very close to her (it's strongly implied Graendal's subtle compulsion is fine work, requiring several interventions - she compares it to sculpture).

Moghedien's compulsion stopped working rather fast after she was not longer around.

Rahvin made the same mistake with Morgase. She was under her spell as long as he kept her close and worked on her a lot, but when he started to push her aside and she was left alone for long, her personality slowly returned.

Effective compulsion works on very primary psychology. Moghedien's order "Live!" is an example. Rhavin used sexual desires/seduction - he created needs which he played on after, before he got Morgase to do anything against her will. Her mental barriers came down because of her desire for him. He didn't compel her to do specific action, he had made her besotted and boosted her libido so she'd melt and agree to his (non compelled) requests.

That's one of Graendal's favourites as well, for subjects she means to send out of fortress. She makes herself the target of deep lust, play on the libido of her male subjects. She doesn't give them compelled orders, she "reshaped" them to accept any order from her, out of passion...

For Itulrade, Graendal played on his loyalty and friendship to the King. She didn't compel him to do anything specific, she boosted his loyalty, so he'd obey every order from the King, not matter how contradictory or stupid.

She compelled Farstrider to keep an eye on Sammael's pawns. He got distracted by the fact Mat (a ta'veren) was doing it too, and hitched with him in the end... He kept following the DF with Mat until they were caught or killed or escaped. Then with time even his compulsion to forget meeting Graendal and having been in the West started to unravel... and that's Graendal's compulsion, the best.

Egwene just doesn't fit the pattern. There's no evidence of any primary trigger Aran'gar has used. Egwene hasn't changed in any meaningful radical way through the Halima episodes. Very strong evidence Egwene was never compelled by Halima is the fact she merely liked the woman and no more, and even kept reservations about her. That doesn't fit the pattern of any compelled subject we've seen, who develop very strong feelings for their compeller (except Verin's, but what she does isn't true compulsion, and because she doesn't create this feeling of deep admiration/love/lust, she can't give any order the subject would oppose, she has to suggest to them to find their own motives to act: serve Rand wouldn't work, "find within you a deep motive to swear to Rand and when you find it follow it" did).

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Egwene under compulsion - 17/05/2012 05:40:31 AM 1967 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 17/05/2012 08:27:50 AM 1282 Views
To add to that - 17/05/2012 01:46:02 PM 1092 Views
Re: To add to that - 18/05/2012 06:04:07 AM 1102 Views
Re: To add to that - 18/05/2012 08:58:23 AM 983 Views
Re: To add to that - 19/05/2012 04:00:49 AM 961 Views
Re: To add to that - 19/05/2012 11:04:14 AM 894 Views
Re: To add to that - 20/05/2012 05:38:31 AM 932 Views
I think you are misunderstanding what I meant - 18/05/2012 04:22:38 PM 973 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 18/05/2012 11:31:01 PM 1123 Views
Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 18/05/2012 11:47:44 PM 866 Views
Re: Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 19/05/2012 12:31:10 AM 1129 Views
Yes I know. That's the point we are discussing. - 19/05/2012 12:44:27 AM 843 Views
Re: Yes I know. That's the point we are discussing. - 20/05/2012 07:01:23 AM 977 Views
Fair point on Ishamael - 20/05/2012 03:36:32 PM 1018 Views
Re: Fair point on Ishamael - 21/05/2012 01:56:30 PM 1006 Views
You are over simplifying it I think - 21/05/2012 03:33:48 PM 1033 Views
Re: Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 20/05/2012 06:54:40 AM 956 Views
Well, Elza did somehow... - 20/05/2012 11:04:56 AM 949 Views
It happened off screen - 20/05/2012 03:44:40 PM 933 Views
Re: It happened off screen - 21/05/2012 01:45:26 PM 903 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 19/05/2012 12:05:32 AM 1253 Views
And lets not forget that Egwene knows to counter compulsion... - 19/05/2012 01:13:39 AM 992 Views
The Headaches - 19/05/2012 04:47:23 AM 978 Views
Re: The Headaches - 19/05/2012 05:12:26 PM 1041 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 20/05/2012 06:37:23 AM 968 Views
Like I said before... - 20/05/2012 07:30:58 PM 936 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 20/05/2012 08:57:17 PM 835 Views
Finding a weave and recognizing the symptoms are different things - 21/05/2012 03:13:12 AM 857 Views
Re: Finding a weave and recognizing the symptoms are different things - 21/05/2012 01:32:30 PM 901 Views
No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 01:48:06 PM 926 Views
Re: No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 01:57:44 PM 917 Views
Re: No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 02:44:09 PM 983 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 21/05/2012 01:21:34 PM 843 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 21/05/2012 06:00:35 PM 992 Views
Seems logical to me, for whatever that is worth. - 21/05/2012 07:28:11 PM 844 Views

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