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Re: I'd have to re-read to be 100% certain, but the way I read the passage DomA Send a noteboard - 28/05/2012 03:33:18 PM
It specifically calls out her Talent when she touched it and the the recalibration began.


That's just as big, if not bigger, an extrapolation than the suggestion a Forsaken know how to operate this ter'angreal.

Aviendha realized that when she touched ter'angreal, she got intuitions about their purpose. There was never any hint in KOD that her Talent is not only passive but also active and linked to calibrating/reprogramming ter'angreal.

She touched the columns, her sensation was too vast to comprehend. She stopped touching the ter'angreal, moved a foot to leave, and new visions started. This may have nothing to do with her Talent at all - merely touching the ter'angreal she may have triggered something. Even many of those who believe the Shadow isn't involved, that it's part of the AS programming, suggest it's by contact with the ter'angreal Aviendha triggered that programming (that her lifethread got identified as linked with Rand's)

It's very obvious that what happened is supposed to be mysterious - RJ sure wanted us to believe this vision was the Future or to at least retain our doubts it might be. One of his devices to convince us was Min's viewing of Avienda's quadruplets. Another is her Talent's. It may turn out to be red herrings/devices, or not.

Perhaps Rand will reveal what Aviendha's Talent really is supposed to be, and it will clarify (or cloud further) what may have happened, but for now it's highly speculative that Aviendha reprogrammed by pure accident a ter'angreal that with her Talent she clearly didn't even begin to understand.

There seems to have been ter'angreal numbering in the millions during the AoL, so it seems very unlikely that a Forsaken who was not involved in making ter'angreal would have such knowledge.


The thing is, we don't know for sure if this ter'angreal was created by the post-Breaking AS or if it was part of the ter'angreal given the Aiel and merely programmed by the Rhuidean Aes Sedai. Clearly they had the knowledge to program the device, at least. Given what we know of Lanfear's fields of competence, some of them fairly clearly linked with this ter'angreal, and given the fact she worked at the most high-tech OP research center of her Age, it's far from a stretch to suggest she may know this ter'angreal or has the skills to puzzle out how to operate it. I'm not suggesting Moghedien would be able to operate it, but Mierin Aronaille.

Again, it's clear to me that Aviendha can't be "THE future". We have way too many clues in the series that the future is formed of points great and small already planned by the Wheel (what can be prophecized, and the bigger the events the more obscure and vague the prophecy...) and everything else is determined by choices and free will. So Aviendha's visions were at best an extrapolation, a projection of a possible future based on the current variables in play, susceptible to be changed a lot by choices, which in turn will open up new options for choices. We can't know what are anchor points in those visions, but we can know it's near impossible to be everything shown or even close, based on all the prophecy characteristics we know (from the vagueness of foretellings, to Dreams as possibilities only, to the fact Min rarely has clear visions of importance to the massive amount of variants in the WO's Arches visions, eg: Moiraine was shown the least perilous path for her/the world, but also several other choices she had the free will to make.

So Aviendha's visions can't be THE future, it's an extrapolated future. There remains the question whether this was an extrapolation from how things really stood, or if this was an extrapolation tampered with. And if it was tampered with, by whom? The Shadow is and remains the option. The Rhuidean AS is the other, but there the tampering may well be restrained to the topic/nature of Aviendha's vision, and making sure the ter'angreal would have this response only for the Aiel wife of the Dragon Reborn.

If this ter'angreal could extrapolate possible futures, we can be fairly sure the first purpose the Rhuidean AS put it to, before they tuned it to read the past, was to send the Jenn Aiel through it to puzzle out the Aiel's future as they knew of Foretelling they'd important, and that's how they realized all Jenn lines that didn't join the warriors died, but there would come a time when the warriors would die in turn if they didn't return to the Way of the Leaf.

The big question remain: was this vision meant to guide Aviendha toward that choice, without imposing it to her or even presenting it as the solution, or was this vision an attempt to discourage and dispirit her and go back to the Aiel saying they were doomed? The WO Dreamers aren't likely to believe the future is all set in stone, for that matter all WO know their lives will be full of choices leading to open or close paths...

But all options remain open for now, and it's especially hard to explain Nakomi's role in all of this. She appears to be the third "divine intervention" in the series. She didn't say anything obviously tied to the Shadow's agenda. The second one is "the crone goddess of TAR", Silvie, who acted as Egwene's guide - and we know this was only Lanfear playing the role of a Crone, like she played Selene with Rand. The first one is for now as unexplainable as Nakomi, and was of course the "Creator's" voice in Rand's head in EOTW. Was Nakomi a ghost controlled by Shai'tan? Possibly, though she didn't seem a ghost like the others we saw. Was this Cyndane sent by Moridin/Shai'tan? Quite possibly. Did she assume the guise of a legendary/mythical Wise One of the Da'shain known in the AOL? Maybe... Nakomis is a mother goddess of the Amerindians to whom the Spider gave a special web to catch bad dreams. She was a shaman/dreamwalker - the mother of Dreamwalkers if you wish. We have so far very little clues about Da'shain Aiel myths. We know somehow they got coined "Children of the Dragon" and were tied to LTT in some way, which made people believe they served only him now.

We can surmise at some point the WO were far more powerful Shamans than they are now. Nowadays there remains the belief incarnated life is a dream, which supposes that at some point the Da'shain believed/knew somehow that real and eternal life was in so-called "death", as your complete self, that incarnated life were merely layers you added to your soul, and thus what you did, what happened to you, followed you forever. Thus the Way of the Leaf. That gives an idea of how much sorrow and empathy they would have for the Soul whose role in the Pattern is to fight and defeat the Dark One over and over... (I have this theory that the dead are all supposed to be in TAR or to touch TAR, that the wolves just don't know as they don't see them anymore they see the Heroes, and the Heroes don't know because they don't see the normal dead... but some Dreamwalkers once could. The dead no longer are in TAR because Shai'tan now controls the Afterlife, that the Bore was drilled in TAR on a perceived weakness in the Pattern that in fact allowed a small brushing from Shai'tan that is mean to allow physical death - for souls... and this weakness is also global as it allows everything to die and be reborn in the Pattern. By opening the Bore, Mierin and co. let Shai'tan grab control of the "soul pool".)

We don't know how the AOLers imagined the Creator. LTT pictured him as a Gardener.. a Green Man, a benevolent solar figure. Were Nyms, constructs who could make things grow, made according to ancient imagery of God? Perhaps. Did the Creator also have a mythical female aspect, being seen as both female and man? He was after all the sum of Saidar and Saidin. That would be a woman linked not to the sun but to the Moon. That could well be Nakomi. Was this part of a mythology that included Nakomi the Mother, the Green Man as her son and mate, the Great Serpent, a mythology that got displaced through the AOL by the more metaphysical and less anthropomorphized cosmology of the Wheel, Pattern and Creator which derives obviously from the apparition of channellers? Quite possibly. LTT would know. Aviendha's meeting with "Nakomi" might trigger a conversation that will reveal a few details we miss to understand the real relationship of LTT and the Da'shain (another possiblity is that we will learn all WO who go to Rhuidean the second time meet this Nakomi...) The big question: are those really divine interventions, and if so were they truly coming from "the Creator" or were they divine interventions by the one "hands on" God we know so far: Shai'tan, Father of Lies?

This message last edited by DomA on 28/05/2012 at 03:54:08 PM
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aMoL UK cover and Blurb (SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!) - 21/05/2012 06:44:26 PM 2632 Views
Thoughts... - 21/05/2012 06:46:41 PM 1138 Views
Re: Thoughts... - 21/05/2012 08:04:29 PM 1092 Views
Re: Thoughts... - 21/05/2012 08:45:41 PM 996 Views
Re: Thoughts... - 21/05/2012 09:04:09 PM 1195 Views
*nods in agreement* *NM* - 21/05/2012 10:46:48 PM 382 Views
Re: Thoughts... - 21/05/2012 11:08:50 PM 1020 Views
Re: Thoughts... - 22/05/2012 01:02:16 AM 1006 Views
Re: Thoughts... - 21/05/2012 09:35:29 PM 1091 Views
Mat and the madness... - 21/05/2012 10:30:09 PM 1003 Views
Nynaeve's revelation may make the AS even more worried of Rand being mad - 21/05/2012 10:58:37 PM 1051 Views
Not Egwene though... - 21/05/2012 11:02:41 PM 868 Views
Maybe, maybe not ... Nynaeve just gave everyone proof of the extent of his possible madness - 21/05/2012 11:26:41 PM 865 Views
Fair enough. - 21/05/2012 11:31:10 PM 878 Views
Agreed that it's an odd blurb - 21/05/2012 11:45:03 PM 910 Views
Re: Maybe, maybe not ... Nynaeve just gave everyone proof of the extent of his possible madness - 22/05/2012 01:14:05 AM 934 Views
I was thinking about that... - 22/05/2012 02:35:25 AM 835 Views
Re: I was thinking about that... - 22/05/2012 03:41:48 AM 914 Views
Re: Mat and the madness... - 22/05/2012 02:29:31 AM 987 Views
Rand's dreams... - 22/05/2012 02:42:36 AM 898 Views
She assumes he's mad just like most people assume a 19 year old boy is horney - 22/05/2012 03:47:49 AM 1041 Views
I'd like some evidence for this. - 22/05/2012 04:14:27 AM 860 Views
It's still ingrained in the society - 22/05/2012 01:28:05 PM 967 Views
Moridin and the link - 28/05/2012 01:45:43 AM 795 Views
Re: Thoughts... - 23/05/2012 01:06:10 PM 822 Views
What caught my eye there was "Trollocs seize Caemlyn." - 22/05/2012 02:12:25 PM 933 Views
As much as I would love Moiraine to go with him to Ebou Dar - 22/05/2012 07:20:40 PM 998 Views
At this stage, all roads lead to Rand. - 22/05/2012 09:08:42 PM 848 Views
Re: At this stage, all roads lead to Rand. - 23/05/2012 08:07:56 PM 879 Views
Well, like I say, there is no reason they could not ALL meet up with Tuon. - 23/05/2012 08:53:53 PM 858 Views
Re: Well, like I say, there is no reason they could not ALL meet up with Tuon. - 24/05/2012 02:41:55 PM 986 Views
Aviendha's visions from Rhuidean indicate he will kneel... - 24/05/2012 07:04:02 PM 1267 Views
Re: Aviendha's visions from Rhuidean indicate he will kneel... - 26/05/2012 09:42:20 PM 1357 Views
Agreed... - 26/05/2012 09:57:06 PM 965 Views
I think you are extrapolating some of his actions into more than he intends - 26/05/2012 10:37:44 PM 837 Views
Re: Agreed... - 27/05/2012 04:26:15 AM 910 Views
I think you're both wrong... - 27/05/2012 08:41:50 AM 898 Views
Re: I think you're both wrong... - 27/05/2012 07:10:08 PM 914 Views
I can't believe Galad will be accepted as a ruler since he is the Lord Captain Commander - 28/05/2012 02:48:26 AM 896 Views
Re: I can't believe Galad will be accepted as a ruler since he is the Lord Captain Commander - 28/05/2012 04:54:46 PM 841 Views
That makes no sense - 28/05/2012 05:50:16 PM 873 Views
Taringail was Laman's heir... - 28/05/2012 07:20:07 PM 805 Views
You are answering the wrong question - 29/05/2012 02:19:48 PM 809 Views
No. I've answered the exact question. You seem to have missed it. - 29/05/2012 04:40:17 PM 853 Views
Yet not one of these things actually happened - 29/05/2012 10:13:35 PM 842 Views
You're being absurd... - 30/05/2012 01:04:36 AM 809 Views
Explain why Taringail didn't become King after Laman's death then - 30/05/2012 05:48:48 AM 785 Views
- 30/05/2012 06:11:02 AM 784 Views
Why then would Taringail, an ambitious man, renounce a Throne? - 30/05/2012 06:22:08 AM 926 Views
We don't fully know... - 30/05/2012 06:43:30 AM 697 Views
You just flipped your last statement - 30/05/2012 06:55:36 AM 938 Views
You seem extremely confused... - 30/05/2012 09:56:30 AM 863 Views
Not confused, simply not satisfied with the information we have - 30/05/2012 12:15:59 PM 815 Views
Re: Not confused, simply not satisfied with the information we have - 30/05/2012 03:34:06 PM 971 Views
I am not contesting the information we have - 30/05/2012 04:48:08 PM 926 Views
You're impossible... - 30/05/2012 10:02:59 PM 855 Views
Wow ... Not sure what is bringing out the aggression - 30/05/2012 10:19:18 PM 762 Views
*sigh* - 30/05/2012 11:45:28 PM 829 Views
DomA swore *NM* - 31/05/2012 03:39:24 PM 925 Views
Re: That makes no sense - 29/05/2012 04:39:45 PM 993 Views
Only one other thing... - 29/05/2012 04:53:29 PM 721 Views
Re: Only one other thing... - 30/05/2012 12:32:58 PM 786 Views
Bryne was Captain General not First Prince and Taringail was Prince Consort not FP - 30/05/2012 06:07:48 AM 833 Views
Bryne was First Prince Regent. - 30/05/2012 06:19:33 AM 806 Views
Fair enough ... Thanks for providing a quote - 30/05/2012 06:22:52 AM 989 Views
Re: Fair enough ... Thanks for providing a quote - 30/05/2012 04:38:29 PM 862 Views
No he wasn't - 30/05/2012 04:16:02 PM 794 Views
No Forsaken will go near that Ter'angreal - 26/05/2012 10:33:20 PM 760 Views
Re: No Forsaken will go near that Ter'angreal - 27/05/2012 03:23:12 AM 829 Views
Aviendha reprogrammed the ter'angreal - 27/05/2012 01:50:19 PM 796 Views
Re: Aviendha reprogrammed the ter'angreal - 27/05/2012 06:44:41 PM 918 Views
I'd have to re-read to be 100% certain, but the way I read the passage - 28/05/2012 02:10:14 AM 897 Views
Re: I'd have to re-read to be 100% certain, but the way I read the passage - 28/05/2012 03:33:18 PM 1019 Views
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one *NM* - 28/05/2012 05:18:40 PM 459 Views
He might not literally kneel before the ter'angreal, but almost certainly must meet with Tuon soon. - 25/05/2012 03:40:54 AM 1138 Views
Soon might be relative... - 27/05/2012 02:08:53 AM 1320 Views
Sul'dam - 27/05/2012 09:03:57 AM 1175 Views
Re: Sul'dam - 27/05/2012 05:54:57 PM 906 Views
Right, then; here we go.... - 03/06/2012 08:45:20 AM 784 Views
Re: As much as I would love Moiraine to go with him to Ebou Dar - 23/05/2012 05:28:17 PM 855 Views
I think I read a fan fiction like that once *NM* - 23/05/2012 08:04:42 PM 446 Views

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