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Re: Why not? fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM
Ugh, you're probably one of those people who cried when the Amayar died. RJ was angry that no one cared about this 'disaster' meanwhile no reader has ever even seen an Amayar and we were meant to cry for this. That's like Mars blowing up and we have to weep for a billion dead martians, but we've never even seen one.

The concept is called empathy. You should try it sometime...
And no, I did not cry. But I did get where RJ was coming from. You don't have to see blood and gore to appreciate the horror of a thousand deaths unless you have an emotional range and imagination that can be fit in a teaspoon.


But many of these 'losses' are more a result of Rand and the chaos that he brings, and not the Forsaken. Very few of the Forsaken can claim to have created real chaos. Semirhage may be the first real example, and that occurred in KoD.

Name a few? Cairhein? That was Asmodean. Andor? That was Rahvin. Arad Doman and Tarabon? That's Ishy, Moghedien and Graendal. The Tower? That's Mesaana. The Aiel? Asmodean again.
Whatever chaos Rand bings is being exacerbated by the Forsaken. It is called "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule".
A\I said distant losses because they have no emotional value. We know Siuan and have walked alongside her - she thus has emotional value. Same with Olver and other people. Do you even care about what's going on in Shara? It's apparently 'bad' according the Aiel, but I doubt you've become angry or sad over something so distant to your heart.

So, let's get this right. It is not in facts that we are dealing here but emotions. You don't really care about the Forsaken's competence, you care about the emotional response their actions generate. How can you claim to be rational about this then?
It'd be fair if you said that the Forsaken's atrocities leave you cold. I think differently, but that's a matter of perspective. But when we discuss competence, it is a matter of facts and numbers, which you must agree are on the Forsaken's side.

Sorry but I disagree. There's a level of battle above the massive war of the Tarmon Gai'don. Without armies these people could still cause serious trouble in the world, so long as they have some sort of connection to the Dark One - which they do have.


Causing serious trouble is possible when they are not kept busy infighting. You did see that I mentioned that right?
Oh please... the Forsaken couldn't fail more if they tried. With Mat as the Prince of the Ravens, and the Dragon Reborn as his friend, it will be the easiest truce in the world when the whole Blight descends on them. Even the Whitecloaks want to fight alongside the Aes Sedai. Asmodean caused real trouble with the Shaido, and in the end, the Seanchan have 300 damane and the Shaido are going back to the Waste.

So the Forsaken are incompetent because the Light will eventually overcome the hurdles and unify to fight them? You do realize that but for those hurdles, the Shadow could have been wiped out by now?


Oops... I meant if you can't blame the Forsaken, who can you blame for not killing the Light? It's their job.

I'm still a little confused. Is there a rule that someone should be blamed for not killing the major protagonists? Because that is certainly not the goal of the Forsaken! They have been, till recently, told nothing about killing these people.

Spreading chaos is a subplot for crying out loud. The goal is to kill the Dragon and break the Wheel.

Again! I cannot believe that you missed the significance of Moridin playing Sha'ra. Spreadin chaos is the main job, not killing the Dragon. For god's sake, the prologue to tGS has a conversation that proves exactly that!
The goal is to eventually either turn or kill the Dragon, but for now, with the Wheel protecting him overtime, that is not an option at all.

Are you serious? What about Moghedien and her long-standing feud with Nynaeve? Lanfear wanted to kill Aviendha. Ishamael told the Black Ajah to get rid of Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene and make them damane.

And Moghedien is your gold standard of Forsaken competence?
As for making them damane, that is not killing them. And that they did not end up damane did not change the fact that this incident drove yet another wedge between two factions of the Light.
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Are women really bad generals? Sidious - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1656 Views
I think that all we can conclude from this... Rand al'Thor - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 944 Views
No. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 1109 Views
Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... Shannow - 01/10/2009 08:40:47 PM 1179 Views
Lol... too true Sidious - 01/10/2009 09:32:29 PM 1109 Views
And you guys whine about the lameness of RJ's villains? fionwe1987 - 01/10/2009 09:41:54 PM 1186 Views
I still haven't seen proof of Demandred or Ishamael's "brilliance". RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 09:56:41 PM 914 Views
Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice Rurouni_Kenshin - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 894 Views
Re: Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:48:13 PM 807 Views
but you are difficult to please Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:10:13 AM 878 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:46:56 PM 834 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please Sidious - 03/10/2009 06:17:21 AM 812 Views
But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 818 Views
You can't have it both ways.... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 909 Views
Why not? Sidious - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 878 Views
Re: Why not? fionwe1987 - 02/10/2009 04:27:00 PM 797 Views
Re: Why not? Sidious - 03/10/2009 06:34:16 AM 879 Views
Re: Why not? fionwe1987 - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 850 Views
Re: Why not? Sidious - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 826 Views
Yeah Etzel - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 901 Views
Re: Yeah nossy - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 882 Views
I thought the same in the past... Etzel - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 858 Views
Gah! Hate! nossy - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 871 Views
Ah, come on... Etzel - 02/10/2009 04:41:37 PM 857 Views
No no, I was just being pouty that I haven't read the new stuff yet. nossy - 02/10/2009 05:01:15 PM 856 Views
Yeah, I can understand that! Etzel - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 697 Views
Unless... Fanatic-Templar - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 917 Views
Re: Unless... Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 954 Views
Well, it's entirely hypothetical, Fanatic-Templar - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 822 Views
Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 949 Views
What about Mat and Ituralde? Rurouni_Kenshin - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 905 Views
Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 822 Views
Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops beetnemesis - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 822 Views
Further... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 866 Views
But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 810 Views
Just one point ^_^ RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 838 Views
Well, yeah. They're knowledgable and deadly in person. Generalship doesn't come into it. beetnemesis - 04/10/2009 12:09:50 AM 801 Views
nope nossy - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 976 Views
Re: nope Sidious - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 1050 Views
Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin NaClH2O - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 1256 Views
Birgitte's not a soldier though. Darth_Katie - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 840 Views
She says she's not, but so does Mat. nossy - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 754 Views
Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 894 Views
Right, which was what we were discussing at first. nossy - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 826 Views
Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 861 Views
true, but she does pretty good NaClH2O - 02/10/2009 01:06:03 AM 903 Views
Oooh I forgot she's in charge of Elayne's lady guards. Darth_Katie - 02/10/2009 03:22:57 AM 780 Views
Egeanin or Leilwin nossy - 01/10/2009 10:35:53 PM 979 Views
A ship captain is like a calvary general NaClH2O - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 838 Views
Right. Cannoli - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 833 Views
Well said. (And its short and to the point.) RabidWombat - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 963 Views
Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. RabidWombat - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 883 Views
Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 800 Views
My opinion Cannoli - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 1278 Views
That's a poor excuse rAndy aL - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 784 Views
That's a poor argument Cannoli - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 1045 Views
Re: That's a poor argument rAndy aL - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 858 Views
I disagree nossy - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 861 Views
Re: I disagree Cannoli - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 1108 Views
Oh, puh-lease. nossy - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 1023 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. Cannoli - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 851 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. NaClH2O - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 749 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. nossy - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3328 Views
I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" Cannoli - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 916 Views
And I can tell you're through when you've gotten to three+ insults per paragraph. nossy - 06/10/2009 05:46:24 PM 1007 Views
um nossy - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 1150 Views
Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst RabidWombat - 04/10/2009 07:28:36 AM 962 Views
Men and football. nossy - 05/10/2009 04:49:35 PM 884 Views
She didn't kill anyone! Why SHOULD she feel guilty? She gave necessary orders. Cannoli - 06/10/2009 03:33:15 AM 952 Views
It's the only thing men are allowed to do in Randland CupofDice - 02/10/2009 03:09:19 AM 890 Views
My thoughts LordPerrin - 02/10/2009 03:12:46 PM 787 Views
.... Fantasy - 04/10/2009 03:38:44 AM 800 Views
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