Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: Oh, puh-lease. by nossy

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Re: Oh, puh-lease. nossy Send a noteboard - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM

She knows how to hunt the BA,

Which would make her something like the resident expert on the subject, no? What experience does Birgitte have to gainsay her?

Resident expert yes- look at your next paragraph. She of all people should know that there is no predicting, but that she should at least make an effort to know what she's getting into. Birgitte should not "gainsay" her, but some reasonable discourse on the subject would have been a good idea.

and she knows things never went well when they rushed into a situation before.

You mean when they rushed into the Panarch's Palace with only two channelers against what could have been all 11 and one of the Forsaken hanging around? And won handily? Or the time they took every precaution and laid low in Tear, only to be captured? Or how they went with a full escort of Kinswomen and soldiers in Ebou Dar to the stash, lost most of the soldiers, some Kinswomen and only snared one Black sister, who was silenced shortly afterward? Do think Elayne isn't conscious of the fact that bringing others into her BA hunts tends to get them killed or else compromised to betray her?

Yes, of course she's conscious of that, because she got to see it yet again. This time it's her fault because she should have known better.

Regardless of whether the new group was there to be observed or not, Elayne and co. would have had no way of knowing they weren't going into a house stacked full of BA just from Hark's observations and Jaem's statement that all the lights were out but one. Elayne knows better than almost anyone else that if you run into a dangerous situation on one piece of information (which you yourself said even the sneakiest of men hadn't the faintest chance of safely obtaining), you risk everything.

And it was worth the risk. The death of Vandene was only a scheduling technicality and Sareitha was not much of a loss, to catch two Blacks, not to mention exposing and eliminating the traitor in their ranks. The biggest problem with Elayne herself being risked is her effect on Rand and the loss of her children. Since we know that THAT won't happen, no biggie. The only other problem you cite is the possible danger. What is YOUR solution to "a house stacked full of BA"? Leave them alone rather than risk the precious Aes Sedai? Can we infer general cowardice in addition to tactical blindness as reasons against women generals from your responses?

Pft. You can infer whatever you like, because you're going to do it anyway. I'm not even worried about Elayne herself, other than the loss the Andor. I'm worried about her taking her crew in there w/o any sort of stake out. Sure, she could have gotten lucky and found just the two. But they should have made an effort to be certain. She did have to move quickly, and I did think it was a good idea for them to link (so the questionable sister would not be in control of the flows), so there are things she did right when they actually entered. It's before that entry that I think they botched.

I am NOT going to type a novel like you did,

Translation: "I don't have as many valid arguments"

and you're free to disagree, but I think her actions there were ridiculous. With all the speculation you put into your post, answer me this: how exactly does a noble fulfill her duty to her people by getting herself caught by some of the evillest wenches around and then relying on her (idiotic- obv, because she's female) warder to know exactly how to get her back w/o killing her whole army that she needed to keep the city and her people from an idiot like Arymilla? Having healthy babies is NOT the same thing as being free and safe while having them.

One fight at a time. Get Elayne back with the bajillion channelers in the Palace. As it turns out, getting her back was the key to winning the battle. In any event, what is she supposed to do? Hold off on doing anything on the off-chance she might get captured? Ask her sisters to risk their lives, while she cannot risk being captured? If getting rid of the Black sisters costs Elayne the throne, that's the way it would have to be. The Shadow out-ranks a political rival as a priority. No matter how inept Arymila's rule, it's better to keep the Shadow out.

The bajillion channelers who were people she felt she couldn't ask/trust to help her against the black ajah? Those bajillion channelers? And they wouldn't have had to save her if she hadn't rushed into an unknown situation. That's all I'm sayin'. The ONLY thing I expect out of her is to at least try to be moderately more certain what she's taking her "army" into. Thinking, "Well, I heard there are only two of them, and I clearly will be fine because of Min's viewing" is not at all a strong basis for a sting op.

Sure, it turned out because it's a novel. Not because Elayne made any brilliant decisions. What she did was put herself into a situation that got people killed (Aes Sedai and a chunk of her army). Birgitte blackmailed the windfinders into saving her over a bargain. They fought the shadow.

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Are women really bad generals? Sidious - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1397 Views

I think that all we can conclude from this... Rand al'Thor - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 687 Views

No. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 796 Views

Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... Shannow - 01/10/2009 08:40:47 PM 906 Views

Lol... too true Sidious - 01/10/2009 09:32:29 PM 802 Views

And you guys whine about the lameness of RJ's villains? fionwe1987 - 01/10/2009 09:41:54 PM 743 Views

I still haven't seen proof of Demandred or Ishamael's "brilliance". RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 09:56:41 PM 648 Views

Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice Rurouni_Kenshin - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 610 Views

Re: Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:48:13 PM 543 Views

but you are difficult to please Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:10:13 AM 598 Views

Re: but you are difficult to please RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:46:56 PM 522 Views

Re: but you are difficult to please Sidious - 03/10/2009 06:17:21 AM 558 Views

But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 546 Views

You can't have it both ways.... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 614 Views

Why not? Sidious - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 585 Views

Re: Why not? fionwe1987 - 02/10/2009 04:27:00 PM 496 Views

Re: Why not? Sidious - 03/10/2009 06:34:16 AM 627 Views

Re: Why not? fionwe1987 - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 558 Views

Re: Why not? Sidious - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 530 Views

Yeah Etzel - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 554 Views

Re: Yeah nossy - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 599 Views

I thought the same in the past... Etzel - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 604 Views

Gah! Hate! nossy - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 608 Views

Ah, come on... Etzel - 02/10/2009 04:41:37 PM 576 Views

No no, I was just being pouty that I haven't read the new stuff yet.

nossy - 02/10/2009 05:01:15 PM 562 Views

Yeah, I can understand that!

Etzel - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 457 Views

Unless... Fanatic-Templar - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 642 Views

Re: Unless... Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 675 Views

Well, it's entirely hypothetical, Fanatic-Templar - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 549 Views

Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 668 Views

What about Mat and Ituralde? Rurouni_Kenshin - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 592 Views

Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 567 Views

Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops beetnemesis - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 535 Views

Further... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 582 Views

But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 544 Views

Just one point ^_^ RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 543 Views

Well, yeah. They're knowledgable and deadly in person. Generalship doesn't come into it. beetnemesis - 04/10/2009 12:09:50 AM 512 Views

nope nossy - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 695 Views

Re: nope Sidious - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 748 Views

Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin NaClH2O - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 966 Views

Birgitte's not a soldier though. Darth_Katie - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 549 Views

She says she's not, but so does Mat.

nossy - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 482 Views

Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 625 Views

Right, which was what we were discussing at first. nossy - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 535 Views

Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 565 Views

true, but she does pretty good NaClH2O - 02/10/2009 01:06:03 AM 630 Views

Oooh I forgot she's in charge of Elayne's lady guards. Darth_Katie - 02/10/2009 03:22:57 AM 492 Views

Egeanin or Leilwin

nossy - 01/10/2009 10:35:53 PM 679 Views

A ship captain is like a calvary general NaClH2O - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 563 Views

Right. Cannoli - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 548 Views

Well said. (And its short and to the point.) RabidWombat - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 690 Views

Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. RabidWombat - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 608 Views

Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 493 Views

My opinion Cannoli - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 976 Views

That's a poor excuse rAndy aL - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 518 Views

That's a poor argument Cannoli - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 695 Views

Re: That's a poor argument rAndy aL - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 580 Views

I disagree nossy - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 590 Views

Re: I disagree Cannoli - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 779 Views

Oh, puh-lease. nossy - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 748 Views

Re: Oh, puh-lease. Cannoli - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 565 Views

Re: Oh, puh-lease. NaClH2O - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 464 Views

Re: Oh, puh-lease. nossy - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3012 Views

I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" Cannoli - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 601 Views

And I can tell you're through when you've gotten to three+ insults per paragraph. nossy - 06/10/2009 05:46:24 PM 689 Views

um nossy - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 845 Views

Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst RabidWombat - 04/10/2009 07:28:36 AM 666 Views

Men and football. nossy - 05/10/2009 04:49:35 PM 576 Views

She didn't kill anyone! Why SHOULD she feel guilty? She gave necessary orders. Cannoli - 06/10/2009 03:33:15 AM 657 Views

It's the only thing men are allowed to do in Randland CupofDice - 02/10/2009 03:09:19 AM 578 Views

My thoughts LordPerrin - 02/10/2009 03:12:46 PM 520 Views

.... Fantasy - 04/10/2009 03:38:44 AM 511 Views

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<quote id="29631">
<quote id="29006"><quote id="28670">She knows how to hunt the BA,</quote> Which would make her something like the resident expert on the subject, no? What experience does Birgitte have to gainsay her?</quote>
Resident expert yes- look at your next paragraph. She of all people should know that there is no predicting, but that she should at least make an effort to know what she's getting into. Birgitte should not "gainsay" her, but some reasonable discourse on the subject would have been a good idea.

<quote id="29006"><quote>and she knows things never went well when they rushed into a situation before.</quote> You mean when they rushed into the Panarch's Palace with only two channelers against what could have been all 11 and one of the Forsaken hanging around? And won handily? Or the time they took every precaution and laid low in Tear, only to be captured? Or how they went with a full escort of Kinswomen and soldiers in Ebou Dar to the stash, lost most of the soldiers, some Kinswomen and only snared one Black sister, who was silenced shortly afterward? Do think Elayne isn't conscious of the fact that bringing others into her BA hunts tends to get them killed or else compromised to betray her? </quote>
Yes, of course she's conscious of that, because she got to see it yet again. This time it's her fault because she should have known better.

<quote id="29006"><quote> Regardless of whether the new group was there to be observed or not, Elayne and co. would have had no way of knowing they weren't going into a house stacked full of BA just from Hark's observations and Jaem's statement that all the lights were out but one. Elayne knows better than almost anyone else that if you run into a dangerous situation on one piece of information (which you yourself said even the sneakiest of men hadn't the faintest chance of safely obtaining), you risk everything. </quote> And it was worth the risk. The death of Vandene was only a scheduling technicality and Sareitha was not much of a loss, to catch two Blacks, not to mention exposing and eliminating the traitor in their ranks. The biggest problem with Elayne herself being risked is her effect on Rand and the loss of her children. Since we know that THAT won't happen, no biggie. The only other problem you cite is the possible danger. What is YOUR solution to "a house stacked full of BA"? Leave them alone rather than risk the precious Aes Sedai? Can we infer general cowardice in addition to tactical blindness as reasons against women generals from your responses?</quote>
Pft. You can infer whatever you like, because you're going to do it anyway. I'm not even worried about Elayne herself, other than the loss the Andor. I'm worried about her taking her crew in there w/o any sort of stake out. Sure, she could have gotten lucky and found just the two. But they should have made an effort to be certain. She did have to move quickly, and I did think it was a good idea for them to link (so the questionable sister would not be in control of the flows), so there are things she did right when they actually entered. It's before that entry that I think they botched.

<quote id="29006"><quote>I am NOT going to type a novel like you did, </quote>Translation: "I don't have as many valid arguments" :P</quote>
<quote id="29006"><quote>and you're free to disagree, but I think her actions there were ridiculous. With all the speculation you put into your post, answer me this: how exactly does a noble fulfill her duty to her people by getting herself caught by some of the evillest wenches around and then relying on her (idiotic- obv, because she's female) warder to know exactly how to get her back w/o killing her whole army that she needed to keep the city and her people from an idiot like Arymilla? Having healthy babies is NOT the same thing as being free and safe while having them.</quote> One fight at a time. Get Elayne back with the bajillion channelers in the Palace. As it turns out, getting her back was the key to winning the battle. In any event, what is she supposed to do? Hold off on doing anything on the off-chance she might get captured? Ask her sisters to risk their lives, while she cannot risk being captured? If getting rid of the Black sisters costs Elayne the throne, that's the way it would have to be. The Shadow out-ranks a political rival as a priority. No matter how inept Arymila's rule, it's better to keep the Shadow out. </quote>
The bajillion channelers who were people she felt she couldn't ask/trust to help her against the black ajah? Those bajillion channelers? And they wouldn't have had to save her if she hadn't rushed into an unknown situation. That's all I'm sayin'. The ONLY thing I expect out of her is to at least try to be moderately more certain what she's taking her "army" into. Thinking, "Well, I heard there are only two of them, and I clearly will be fine because of Min's viewing" is not at all a strong basis for a sting op.

Sure, it turned out because it's a novel. Not because Elayne made any brilliant decisions. What she did was put herself into a situation that got people killed (Aes Sedai and a chunk of her army). Birgitte blackmailed the windfinders into saving her over a bargain. They fought the shadow.

</quote>

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