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Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions Cannoli Send a noteboard - 28/12/2015 12:40:49 PM

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1. What do you think is the funniest moment or line in WoT?

One of several:
- Nynaeve asking Lan, about Myrelle & their bond "Is there any way to be sure she knows it's me?"
- Nynaeve telling a stranger "politely" "Go away, we don't want your help."
- Mat saying "Saving Egwene isn't wasting time."
2. What was the best story arc in the series?

I'd go with either the whole pursuit of the Horn of Valere, Mat's episode in tDR, or the Andoran succession.
3. Which character do you think was the most overrated by other characters?

Egwene. With Siuan, Morgase, and Gareth Bryne all running in a close bunch for second place. They were all praised excessively with little to show for it (though with Bryne that's more a function of personality issues; I am assuming he has demonstrated objective military competence at some point or other; when you realize that through the entire series, he never wins a battle, nor has any specific mentions of military accomplishments, combined with the point that he was sleeping with his boss, even the professional assumptions are somewhat shady), and I have thoroughly explored elsewhere the issue of other characters blinding themselves to Egwene's mistakes or emphasizing minor details or even outright faults, as virtues.
4. What were the best and worst parts of Sanderson's writing?

The best parts were when he occasionally came up with some clever bit of channeling, though those were few and far between, and he wrote a few bits that seem like he thought he was being clever, but only demonstrated his own ignorance of how things had been portrayed earlier (Androl's gateway Talent) or were not that clever after all (the discussion about the observation gateway at Tarmon Gaidon, where characters brought up stupid faults or overlooked obvious solutions to them).

The worst parts were his attempts at characterization, dialogue, and continuity and his appalling vocabulary.


5. Which culture was your favourite and why?

I suppose Andoran, because it was the most normal, and there were few things thrown in to make them unique. The borderlanders were almost cool, and superficially very much so, but closer examination shows all sorts of absurd gender issues, which seem to have been thrown in to make some sort of point about sexual mores.
6. How is it possible there were so many Black sisters? I read somewhere that it was roughly 200 persons, making the Black ajah almost as large as the Red.

Because the Aes Sedai are appallingly amoral. They deliberately undermine their initiates' formative development to leave them only loyal to the Tower, with no moral code except a trio of carefully formulated restrictions that are designed to be evaded, while not even bothering to pretend to pay more than lip service to the letter of those rules, or denying violating the spirit of them as thoroughly as possible. Their entire society is focused on the accumulation of power, making influence and status the most valuable commodities among them. All other commodities or values are either provided in abundance or excised from their value system, at least to the extent that the Tower's interests supersede any other considerations. In such a system, pursuit of power, status and influence within the Tower and among the Aes Sedai is the only real value or "good" permitted to them.

The real surprise is that the numbers of Black sisters are so low. That they are is probably some sort of saccharine commentary on the basic goodness of humanity.


7. How do you see the future of Randland unfolding from now on (e.g. Seanchan, Aiel, Asha'man, Kin)?

I don't see things going much better for the Aiel. RJ dropped the ball on that one. The other countries are going to get fed up with no ultimate way to deal with their legitimate grievances without the interference of a pack of psychotic morons, and figure out some way to marginalize them the moment Elayne & Aviendha are both out of the picture. They haven't got the wherewithal to truly compete against the civilized world absent some sort of absurd handicap, like the Dragon's Peace or the Tower's stultifying influence.

With the Black Tower now a thing, and apparently likely to continue under a man who seems to be perceived as the greatest living hero in the world, based on Logain's personal growth and Min's viewing of him, the influence of the White Tower can't help but wane. Even with the most amicable relations between the two Towers, the Black is not going to simply roll over and accept the White's exercising influence so specifically intended to its own advantage. With an alternative higher authority, people are not going to allow the White Tower to enforce unfortunate foreign policies which some Grey sister thinks is for the greater good, or which favor a Tower scheme. At the very least, rulers will start using the threat that they might prefer the advice of an Asha'man adviser to obtain more favorable relations with the Aes Sedai.

That loosening up of political society, combined with the gunpowder revolution and the ball Rand got rolling with his academies, should see massive technological expansion. The Sea Folk's only advantage henceforth is their navigation abilities, and Kin Tovere's work, and others like it will soon lead to that being eroded. For the rest, the academy at Cairhien has two components that will soon make the Sea Folk sailing technology obsolete (Idrien describes the invention of mechanical propulsion at one point, noting that it lacks sufficient power to be effective, and we have seen that Poel has perfected the steam engine, so it's only a matter of time before the two are linked up).

The mercantile arrangement Elayne comes to with the Kin will be the death of traditional channeler supremacy. With one group, whose membership have extensive commercial and professional experience (literally centuries of direct, personal practice), embarking on the commercialization of channeling services, the White & Black Towers will have to get into the game or be left behind. A lot of people will take the option of getting rich and joining the Kin, over the prestige of the Towers. If the Kin won't be flexible enough to let new channelers join, someone WILL eventually start an organization with more competitive practices. The Aes Sedai will no longer be able to get away with shutting down groups like they did to the Daughters of Silence, because too many other powers will see advantages to a deal like Elayne has with the Kin. Absent the personal friendship Elayne had with Egwene that might impel her to act against her own national interests, Elayne is going to do what is best for Andor and her own reign. If other groups start showing more verve and flexibility than the Kin, she'll 'encourage' them to change. With Alise in charge, I don't think they'll need it.

Of course, the worst could also happen, as various parties find it in their own interests to adhere to the status quo, the Towers decide to respect one another's supremacy in spheres of influence and combining to uphold that appalling pact Egwene made with the Wise Ones and Windfinders and squelch all other channelers. Cadsuane's necessarily brief administration might see her staying in long enough to ensure the survival of the Tower against the immediate challenges, and the maintenance of its stature, but dying before she has a chance to impart any positive long-term reforms, to be succeeded by yet another career politician of the sort who made the Tower the dismal group it was before Tarmon Gai'don. Likewise Logain's tendency to coddle and bend over backward for Aes Sedai could lead to unfortunate compromises undermining the Black Tower's position as a check.

It's human nature. There's no telling how it could go.



-----------


And my answers.
  1. I think Mat had a lot of quietly hilarious lines. Romanda gets a mention too, for when she tried to hide the smutty romance novel from Nisao she was embarrassed about. BS had one unintentional gem, which really should make Egwene-haters giggle:
    Egwene frowned, as if trying to figure out what advantages there could be in lessened power
Um, yeah, that was just par for the course.
2. Mat in Ebou Dar, I think. I'm not really a WOT fan anymore (I hardly even read aMoL), but I enjoy skimming the middle/late-ish books, even the parts that people usually hate (well maybe not CoT).
  1. This would be the whole Trakand family.. But Morgase is the one I'm thinking of.
IDK, Elayne is the one who really makes them look bad, by showing what their bloodline is capable of. She was remarkably successful and ended up as the most powerful ruler in WoT, outside the Seanchan Empire. A mostly that was through legitimate and realistic means, as opposed to absurd loopholes in Tower laws, or ta'veren effects or Prophecies that propel the rest of the characters to political power.
4. Worst was the way that every line was a bit off, such as a sul'dam talking about medical aid or Graendal using weird metaphors. And the parts with Mat I just have to skip, horrid stuff. Best.. Well, at least we got the books.
Yeah. For certain values of books.
5. I rather liked the Sea Folk, for some reason. Perhaps I could be reborn as a male Windfinder.
I wasn't nearly as enraged or appalled as many people seem to have been at their successes or "attitudes". They were from a mercantile culture, they performed a commercial function that in the real world has often led to resentments, persecution and even genocide against ethnic groups with similar functions, and they were negotiating with the group that threatens the basis of their culture, imposes what they would consider a dreadful fate as a matter of course, and is well known for making deals in bad faith. With that in mind, their bargain with Nynaeve and Elayne is positively generous, and their various demands are actually pretty reasonable attempts to ensure they get what they are owed. And they ARE owed. The Aes Sedai have spent 3,000 years stripping their lands of any other options when it came to supernatural resources. Just as police officers are legally responsible for the well-being of people they place under arrest, because they have stripped such people of the ability to do it for themselves, so is the Tower morally obligated to do whatever is necessary, and pay any price to protect the world from supernatural threats. They have no cause or grounds to expect the Sea Folk to come in and save the day, just because the Tower neglected to prepare themselves to meet the current challenge. And given the Tower's propensity for cheating and double-talk, all the Sea Folk conditions were necessary to prevent the Tower from using their bargain as a wedge to make off with their Windfinders, breaking up families, forcibly alienating numerous women permanently from their homes, kin and preferred lifestyle (not to mention the whole "murdering students for not being sufficiently devoted to the school" bit), and destroying the livelihood of the Sea Folk as a whole.
6. I have no idea, seems pretty weird that DF's would have such a strong presence in the Tower (much more than among the general population, surely). And with those numbers, you'd think they would have taken over the Hall and everything else ages ago. Perhaps it had to do with Aes Sedai power-hungriness, Sheriam certainly only joined out of lust for power and general "naughtiness", she was hardly the most evil of persons.
She was the most evil of persons, QED. You don't need the Dark One to indulge in vice, instead she betrayed humanity for power.
7. This I leave to you. I'm skimming through the last books and dreading Aviendha's Rhuidean visions. Depressing stuff.

Only in the sense of seeing a blindly arrogant & entitled jerk eventually reaping the consequences of his actions. All the worst aspects of douchey Aiel behavior, their xenophobia, their ethnocentrism, and their complete and total unwillingness to acknowledge that anyone else could have a different point of view with any validity, that 's why they ended up as they did. I'm sure the people who were slaughtered, orphaned, widowed and otherwise bereft of property, homes, livelihoods and family members because the Aiel were in a snit about a tree would have a diametrically opposite perspective on how depressing their future history could have been. The Aiel War happened because the Aiel refused to explain themselves or the significance of their gift to the Cairhienin, refused to explain their grievance with Laman's Sin, and punished people for their geographical proximity to the man who had offended him. For a people so arrogantly proud of their mad ninja skills, you wouldn't think killing the perpetrating individual would necessitate burning down the country. These are the sorts of fucktards who, upon going out in the world to look specifically for one of their people raised among foreigners, because he is their prophesied messiah, draw down on the VERY FIRST MAN THEY MEET who fits the description! The Maidens encountered in the stedding back in tGH noted Rand's appearance and came to the same surmise about his ethnicity that even such intellectual dim bulbs as Masema and Gawyn reach, and it never seems to have occurred to them any possible relevance to their mission.

Aiel are like the moronic wizards of Harry Potter, who are mentally outclassed by those they scorn for having lesser abilities. Just as people raised as muggles adapt very swiftly & successfully to the wizarding world (i.e. Hermione & Harry, and Lily implied as well), wetlanders figure out Aiel prophecies better than Aiel do. Mat, Perrin & Elayne all leap to the obvious conclusion, but the Maidens specifically looking for him never seem to have had a clue. And just as the wizards who dedicate their lives to studying the muggle culture that surrounds and outnumbers them are still absolutely clueless, so does Gaul, apparently one of the intellectual rising stars of the Sharaad, manage to put the two largest rivers in the world between himself and the place he knows the object of his search is destined to appear.

The Aiel are so colossally stupid, that Aviendha's vision is actually better than you might think. I'd have assumed they'd all died from stepping on rakes, or drowning while trying to pour water out of their boots (if they didn't break their necks when someone advised them the instructions were written on the heels).

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 26/12/2015 08:46:07 PM 2011 Views
My answers - 27/12/2015 02:55:35 AM 978 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 27/12/2015 04:42:28 PM 1085 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 27/12/2015 09:01:33 PM 1039 Views
Black Ajah - 28/12/2015 02:44:04 AM 973 Views
Mine - 27/12/2015 10:39:08 PM 1109 Views
Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 12:57:23 AM 1003 Views
Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 09:51:54 AM 839 Views
Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 02:02:33 PM 913 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 28/12/2015 12:40:49 PM 1296 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 28/12/2015 01:53:00 PM 1122 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 29/12/2015 11:35:09 AM 945 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 29/12/2015 05:12:46 PM 993 Views
So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 04:26:47 PM 1150 Views
Re: So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 10:52:29 PM 992 Views
Why do you bother? *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:23:10 AM 565 Views
Seriously... - 29/12/2015 01:30:34 AM 1010 Views
Sadly I have to agree - 29/12/2015 08:46:58 AM 1035 Views
You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 11:21:24 AM 1063 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 12:10:51 PM 1084 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 11:25:09 AM 1046 Views
Yet it's Mesaana who forces the head to head confrontation with Egwene - 30/12/2015 05:25:00 PM 1052 Views
I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 02:53:14 AM 865 Views
Re: I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 06:28:33 AM 1017 Views
Damn stupid WoT, never working out the way you think it should! - 04/01/2016 01:38:45 AM 1054 Views
So you agree, Egwene eliminated on of the Forsaken in a direct conflict - 04/01/2016 03:28:35 AM 916 Views
Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 07:17:20 AM 1063 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 03:59:18 PM 973 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 04:19:00 PM 1043 Views
Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 04:28:00 PM 1085 Views
Re: Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 07:05:27 PM 1156 Views
That's not the worst argument given how lame many of them were - 04/01/2016 06:37:44 PM 1036 Views
Uh oh - 04/01/2016 07:03:08 PM 1492 Views
*grabs Dewars* *NM* - 04/01/2016 08:24:05 PM 672 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 06:22:02 PM 1162 Views
Apparently, Egwene shouldn't have killed the Sharans... - 31/12/2015 02:56:08 AM 1095 Views
it's just an excuse to not give credit to a character he doesn't like - 31/12/2015 04:44:17 AM 1223 Views
Exactly. The double standard has always existed in Cannoli's rants. - 31/12/2015 05:31:42 AM 1175 Views
Yes well I've only recently started to realize how distasteful it is - 31/12/2015 06:27:26 AM 1178 Views
Wow... the board was alive 5 years ago! - 31/12/2015 08:34:03 AM 1120 Views
LOL ... Someday you'll come to realize how right we were!!! *NM* - 31/12/2015 05:23:18 PM 691 Views
How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 08:05:38 AM 1247 Views
Re: How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 10:49:20 AM 1286 Views
You can dislike Cannoli, you can claim his arguments are biased... - 31/12/2015 07:09:55 PM 1158 Views
Offended? No, I find it funny, in a needs medication way - 31/12/2015 07:50:28 PM 1012 Views
It is possible - 01/01/2016 05:59:51 AM 1128 Views
It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 06:53:27 AM 1103 Views
Re: It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 08:43:43 AM 1051 Views
She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 01:49:37 AM 1125 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 04:16:39 AM 1078 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 08/01/2016 10:33:22 PM 1048 Views
Fair enough - 01/01/2016 09:31:47 AM 869 Views
Where did I say someone who reads his posts are dumb or something? - 01/01/2016 05:15:30 PM 869 Views
Not directly - 01/01/2016 09:09:05 PM 949 Views
And yet I'm being told I'm the one acting offended - 02/01/2016 01:15:15 AM 824 Views
See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 06:20:16 PM 938 Views
Re: See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 07:25:38 PM 995 Views
Okay, Mark, all kidding and stuff aside, you're being the asshole, here. - 02/01/2016 03:49:08 AM 1028 Views
Okay... - 02/01/2016 04:50:24 AM 984 Views
About insults... - 02/01/2016 05:04:47 AM 929 Views
I don't know where to even respond about all this! - 02/01/2016 07:39:43 PM 886 Views
Re: I don't know where to even respond about all this! - 03/01/2016 10:39:10 AM 930 Views
LOL ... Love it *NM* - 03/01/2016 04:17:02 PM 499 Views
Re: Okay... - 02/01/2016 12:55:37 PM 1204 Views
Um, I think you are going a bit far with your assumptions - 01/01/2016 07:35:23 PM 898 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 02:13:32 PM 932 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 11:50:13 AM 1192 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 05:07:09 PM 1040 Views
My admittedly scratch memory - 31/12/2015 08:32:51 AM 918 Views
Re: My admittedly scratch memory - 31/12/2015 08:47:58 AM 994 Views
Thanks - 01/01/2016 06:14:45 AM 916 Views
One thing... - 01/01/2016 06:42:10 AM 868 Views
Re: One thing... - 01/01/2016 08:49:00 AM 861 Views
Re: One thing... - 01/01/2016 01:40:21 PM 919 Views
Interesting - 01/01/2016 09:18:43 AM 872 Views
Re: Interesting - 01/01/2016 05:29:38 PM 927 Views
Re: Interesting - 01/01/2016 06:50:26 PM 833 Views
Or perhaps a mixed circle could figure it out - 01/01/2016 07:40:02 PM 850 Views
Maybe it's like a broken bone? - 01/01/2016 09:10:26 PM 893 Views
Re: Maybe it's like a broken bone? - 02/01/2016 01:13:05 AM 903 Views
Re: My admittedly scratch memory - 02/01/2016 02:10:44 AM 1106 Views
Here we go with the selective criticisms again... - 02/01/2016 04:23:47 AM 983 Views
It's not selective to point out legitimate differences in circumstances. - 02/01/2016 12:25:07 PM 1165 Views
not true, the Sul'dam's mission was to capture or kill as many marath'damane as they could - 02/01/2016 08:49:28 PM 867 Views
How are they supposed to do that without a'dam? - 04/01/2016 01:45:52 AM 1003 Views
enemy combatant in an active hot zone - 04/01/2016 03:34:15 AM 889 Views
Only if they were germane to the issue... - 03/01/2016 09:32:22 AM 844 Views
Timing of the creation of the three oaths - 03/01/2016 08:22:12 PM 880 Views
Re: Timing of the creation of the three oaths - 03/01/2016 08:56:35 PM 1043 Views
Cheers - 03/01/2016 09:50:41 PM 816 Views
Re: Cheers - 03/01/2016 10:35:34 PM 978 Views
Re: Only if they were germane to the issue... - 04/01/2016 07:15:58 AM 899 Views
Q.E.D. - 04/01/2016 12:29:58 PM 1217 Views
Re: Q.E.D. - 04/01/2016 02:41:19 PM 1120 Views
Interesting... - 28/12/2015 02:31:33 PM 954 Views
Re Perrin - 29/12/2015 07:24:41 AM 1034 Views
Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 04/01/2016 08:26:18 AM 1169 Views
Re: Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 04/01/2016 01:44:53 PM 990 Views
Re: Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 07/01/2016 12:24:28 AM 1241 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 18/01/2016 04:40:03 PM 766 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 18/01/2016 04:44:10 PM 749 Views
Overrated characters - 06/02/2016 04:24:55 PM 775 Views

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