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That's ridiculous... Shannow Send a noteboard - 19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM
None of this explains why Rand thought he and Nynaeve couldn't barge in and take Graendal down. If they went with the intent to kill, and threw weaves at her, Graendal is not going to stop them by making speeches!

And she cannot escape either. They can follow her wherever she goes.

That despite such advantages, Rand doesn't even think of physical confrontation, implies that Graendal is a very dangerous fighter indeed.


Rand spells it out for us in tGS. Why do you keep ignoring it?

He tells Nynaeve that Graendal is SMARTER than he is.

He then tells Nynaeve that he won't be able to goad Graendal into fighting him, like Rahvin and Sammael. And that she would flee as soon as she was aware of him, to one of a dozen hiding places she would already have set up.

Can it possibly be any clearer than that?

For "insert name here"'s sake! He has the bloody Choedan Kal with him. How on earth can he be scared to face Graendal? You are descending into the realm of the ludicrous in your attempts to justify the unjustifiable.

Rand is worried that if he makes a gateway into the palace, Graendal's ward's will pick it up and she will flee immediately. And he is obviously worried that he will not be able to follow her.

Your entire argument is based on misinformation, misinterpretation and ignorance of the facts, in this case.

Usually you are a VERY astute debater. But in this case your emotions seem to be clouding your judgement.
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Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... Shannow - 18/11/2009 05:56:58 PM 2319 Views
Sounds good Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:08:15 PM 1203 Views
Re: Sounds good Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:12:53 PM 1280 Views
Re: Someryn Logain - 18/11/2009 06:20:44 PM 1259 Views
I acknowledge that possibility... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:24:30 PM 1147 Views
Someryn implies that Graendal is stronger. Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/11/2009 01:51:31 PM 1254 Views
Excellent point...I'd forgotten about that... Shannow - 19/11/2009 02:00:30 PM 1161 Views
As I understand it... Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:23:26 PM 1258 Views
My view is that the new list is just a revised one, after RJ changed his mind on some things... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:28:53 PM 1301 Views
Agreed. fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:31:22 PM 1114 Views
I suppose that's possible. *NM* Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:31:42 PM 909 Views
I agree with this interpretation on the new vs. old list kcf - 18/11/2009 07:13:02 PM 1190 Views
Re: Sounds good kcf - 18/11/2009 07:11:17 PM 1093 Views
Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve? Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:12:57 PM 1222 Views
Re: Did it sound like Sanderson knew the names of all 6 women above Nynaeve? kcf - 18/11/2009 07:15:22 PM 1342 Views
Also, a couple more questions, if I may... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:18:50 PM 1096 Views
Re: Also, a couple more questions, if I may... kcf - 18/11/2009 07:23:45 PM 1136 Views
But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no. Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:26:17 PM 1185 Views
Re: But you said that you asked him whether Cyndane was one of the 6, and he said no. kcf - 18/11/2009 07:31:35 PM 1156 Views
That blows a heck of a lot of this theory out of the water... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:33:39 PM 1161 Views
it's possible, but I'd say unlikely kcf - 18/11/2009 07:34:32 PM 1176 Views
One problem... Rand al'Thor - 18/11/2009 06:10:06 PM 1293 Views
No... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:14:48 PM 1200 Views
That's not a problem. Rand al'Thor - 18/11/2009 06:31:37 PM 1156 Views
Why on earth would there be multiple restrictions on Cyndane's strength? Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:47:56 PM 1050 Views
Sorry buddy Rand al'Thor - 18/11/2009 07:36:00 PM 1160 Views
Re: Sorry buddy rhiane - 18/11/2009 09:49:01 PM 1098 Views
Are you able to give any more detail on Sanderson's answer to your Cyndane question? Shannow - 18/11/2009 10:02:17 PM 1157 Views
But Nynaeve and Mogheiden were of equal strength beetnemesis - 18/11/2009 06:15:52 PM 1339 Views
Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:19:07 PM 1395 Views
I agree...and I have a question regarding Moghedien. Logain - 18/11/2009 06:30:07 PM 1206 Views
Cyndane has to be above Graendal. *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:33:16 PM 639 Views
You're right. I'll post new list below. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 06:39:36 PM 654 Views
Was she? Nyn was mid20s and a wilder, I thought she had reached full strength beetnemesis - 18/11/2009 08:00:24 PM 1233 Views
As late as CoS, Nynaeve states that she is not close to her full potential yet. *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:04:47 PM 655 Views
She really hasn't had that much time channelling though. Wotmaniac Reborn - 18/11/2009 08:07:31 PM 887 Views
Wilders rarely reach their full potential if they're blocked. *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:43:30 PM 687 Views
I know the Cleansing forced her a bit. Gher - 18/11/2009 08:44:59 PM 1175 Views
That's been said before- anyone know where it says that in the text? beetnemesis - 19/11/2009 05:53:50 AM 953 Views
Re: Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet... The_Archer - 10/12/2010 08:07:05 PM 1197 Views
Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... Tedtheman - 18/11/2009 06:22:50 PM 1040 Views
More or less agreed. I was right about Nynaeve! fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:29:27 PM 1107 Views
IMO... Etzel - 18/11/2009 06:37:19 PM 1216 Views
I don't know... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:56:10 PM 1092 Views
I still think Alivia is below Lanfear's strength level... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:59:01 PM 1409 Views
That just doesn't make sense... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 07:02:17 PM 1210 Views
I agree that Lanfear and Alivia are tied. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 07:06:19 PM 666 Views
All of my instincts indeed argue that 4 of the Forsaken CANNOT be below Nynaeve, but... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:06:25 PM 1050 Views
But why doesn't it make sense? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:47:42 PM 943 Views
Talaan, Alivia and Sharina reduced my estimation of Nynaeve dramatically... Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:54:29 PM 1131 Views
All this can be explained by the fact that Nynaeve was yet to reach her potential. fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:25:41 PM 1121 Views
I don't think... Etzel - 18/11/2009 07:08:09 PM 1273 Views
Damane never recieve special status... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:52:32 PM 1085 Views
Good point... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:00:51 PM 1100 Views
Thing is... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:10:45 PM 1142 Views
Lanfear cannot even defeat Rand. Nynaeve wouldn't last a minute against him. Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:13:06 PM 1164 Views
And Rand couldn't defeat Lanfear. What's your point? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:26:06 PM 937 Views
He could. RJ stated it in a Q&A. Rand just couldn't bring himself to do it... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:45:18 PM 924 Views
But so could Lanfear, and both had angreal, confusing the situation considerably. fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:47:25 PM 980 Views
My point was... Etzel - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 1138 Views
I agree *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:10:46 PM 629 Views
If Tuon had the strongest... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:12:22 PM 1062 Views
Sera must be stronger... Etzel - 18/11/2009 09:25:00 PM 1068 Views
There's no reason to be certain about it... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:28:26 PM 1123 Views
Well, the Bloodknives are precisely Tuon's tools Etzel - 18/11/2009 09:32:46 PM 1064 Views
There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:46:28 PM 1126 Views
There are six stronger women named on the list Etzel - 19/11/2009 11:40:52 AM 1127 Views
I'm not ignoring Sera! fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:13:43 PM 976 Views
You misunderstand me... Etzel - 19/11/2009 06:16:31 PM 1053 Views
I doesn't make "sense". Let's leave it... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:19:52 PM 1044 Views
There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:46:29 PM 1217 Views
But Alivia (while strong in the OP) is an old fraile lady on her deathbed. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 09:41:33 PM 683 Views
Pardon? Don't understand this really. *NM* Etzel - 19/11/2009 11:45:21 AM 501 Views
You keep saying Alivia was "a common damane" darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 08:58:42 PM 904 Views
You were right about Nynaeve, I was right about Graendal! Well done! Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:37:42 PM 1194 Views
Yes. This is one WoT debate coming to a close... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 06:54:06 PM 968 Views
I have one problem with your list. Kaldric - 18/11/2009 06:36:02 PM 1153 Views
RJ said the Forsaken ALWAYS overrate themselves... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:54:45 PM 1015 Views
I totally agree. Mesaana is weaker than Semirhage. This was also confirmed by BS *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 06:56:30 PM 618 Views
Mesaana is cold and calculating. Kaldric - 18/11/2009 07:03:49 PM 1067 Views
I'm sorry, but I find it mindblowing that you find this mindblowing. TaskmasterJack - 18/11/2009 06:36:37 PM 1086 Views
Some of us have been debating this for 5 years on Wotmania... Shannow - 18/11/2009 06:57:08 PM 1166 Views
I think it goes like this: Logain - 18/11/2009 06:53:07 PM 1114 Views
There is a side effect to all of this rearrangement...we may have to rethink the wonder girls. Logain - 18/11/2009 07:04:17 PM 1161 Views
We'll have to re-read the sections where Moghedien is captured. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/11/2009 07:08:07 PM 1062 Views
Damn. That's a thought I definitely DON'T relish. Thankfully... Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:09:18 PM 1100 Views
Helpless at her strength at the time, or helpless at Egwene's full potential? *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 07:26:15 PM 612 Views
Egwene was forced, so she was already at her full potential when she made this comment. *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 07:45:08 PM 623 Views
I admit she was forced, but how does that guarantee she was at full strength? *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 08:06:40 PM 628 Views
I'm 90% sure it is stated somewhere... *NM* Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:10:03 PM 611 Views
Egwene was at her full strength. Elayne comments on this in The Shadow Rising IIRC. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/11/2009 08:34:37 PM 1167 Views
She only says that Egwene is stronger and had been forced darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 01:54:56 AM 1109 Views
Where does she say this? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:54:39 PM 1114 Views
No, she explicitly refers to herself vs Moghedien... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:01:53 PM 1116 Views
Here are the quotes... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:24:24 PM 1124 Views
Oh come on. You're totally twisting that passage to suit your argument... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:54:56 PM 1020 Views
I could say the same... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 10:50:44 PM 1043 Views
So let me get this straight... Shannow - 19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM 1048 Views
No... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 07:37:29 AM 1098 Views
Look at it this way... Shannow - 19/11/2009 10:23:06 AM 1062 Views
Dude, there were other quotes... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:15:32 PM 989 Views
What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too. Logain - 18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM 1152 Views
Totally disagree... Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM 1191 Views
Re: Totally disagree... Logain - 18/11/2009 08:22:07 PM 1072 Views
Males likely go like this... Shannow - 18/11/2009 08:27:27 PM 1041 Views
Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 1050 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 18/11/2009 09:09:45 PM 1139 Views
Disagree back... for the last time though... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM 1001 Views
About the top 6... Shannow - 18/11/2009 10:08:37 PM 1075 Views
And One Power Battles turn political on a regualr basis, do they? fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 10:54:35 PM 1133 Views
That's ridiculous... Shannow - 19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM 1016 Views
Re: That's ridiculous... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 08:08:14 AM 1051 Views
Well... Shannow - 19/11/2009 10:29:45 AM 1064 Views
This is getting idiotic... fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 06:19:08 PM 1067 Views
Re: Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... The_Archer - 10/12/2010 07:31:18 PM 1065 Views
If Rahvin were stronger... fionwe1987 - 18/11/2009 08:59:32 PM 1026 Views
Graendal could not face down Rand. And if she thinks she can it is b/c she has an angreal. *NM* Logain - 18/11/2009 09:49:00 PM 585 Views
But Rand did not know of her angreal. *NM* fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 12:03:21 AM 589 Views
Rand knows he can beat Graendal in a heads-up-duel. Graendal knows she would lose. *NM* Logain - 28/11/2009 10:07:27 PM 625 Views
Disagreement Corwin - 19/11/2009 01:39:49 AM 1160 Views
Some more from Brandon... kcf - 19/11/2009 04:29:41 AM 1054 Views
So we're back where we started? fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 04:56:36 AM 862 Views
Re: So we're back where we started? kcf - 19/11/2009 05:18:15 AM 1158 Views
Someone must ask him: Is Cyndane one of the 6 above Nynaeve. Shannow - 19/11/2009 05:35:10 AM 1006 Views
My opinion: down this path lies insanity. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 19/11/2009 02:53:59 PM 1089 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 19/11/2009 04:55:09 AM 1167 Views
Re: Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... The_Archer - 10/12/2010 07:55:51 PM 1023 Views
we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:36:50 PM 1053 Views
Re: we know from a direcet quote in TPoD that Nynaeve had not yet reached full strength The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:17:48 PM 1067 Views
winning in TAR had nothing to do with OP strength... that was pure skill and later Moghedien lost! darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 04:14:26 PM 1026 Views
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