Active Users:1595 Time:19/09/2026 07:20:26 PM
Because it isn't a lie DomA Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM
If she had said she hadn't noticed outright without any sarcasm then it would be more debatable.


Her statement, sacrastic or not is still a lie... how does this not violate the 1st Oath?


It doesn't matter what words she uses, the binder caught on her intent, on the meaning she was giving her words, which was altered by her tone. Aes Sedai can make a completely false statement if they believe they're telling the truth. It's similar with sarcasm: they are saying one thing, and mean something else. By using a clearly sarcastic tone, Cadsuane made those words mean something else, something which was "true".

She wasn't trying to hide her meaning. By the tone, these words meant something like "everyone in Bandar Eban knows that", which isn't a lie. Not a shred of an attempt to deceive in there. RJ made it very clear the first Oath doesn't hinder Aes Sedai from using sarcasm and exageration at all as long as they don't intend to hide the sarcasm in order to deceive (he gave the example of a blind person asking the colour of something. AS could not answer sarcastically for that, but if the person saw normally they could use sarcasm and say "it's obviously black" - their words meaning "what sort of question is this, you can see as well as I it's white";).

In these cases, it's all about intent. They can mislead by omission too, because the oath stops them from speaking out lies, but doesn't force them to finish statements. They mean to say one thing and end up saying another by stopping in the middle.

Aes Sedai can speak hypothetically - in that case they are bound by the letter of the oath: presenting a true hypothesis without regard for the fact they hope it will be taken for a certainty (as Sarene did with Semirhage: it was a chance in a million that Elaida (or Egwene) would be convinced the woman knew too much to be executed, but that chance in a million was enough for Sarene to say "we may be able to convinced her to lessen your punishments" etc.). There the intent is to deceive, but the "may" makes the statement hypothetically true, so the binder doesn't stop that either.



This message last edited by DomA on 06/12/2009 at 08:09:12 PM
Reply to message
Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2424 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1649 Views
Sarcasm is one thing - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1327 Views
I disagree - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1298 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 1249 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1305 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 611 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1379 Views
Yes, she did state it. - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 1270 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 1260 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 1221 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 1271 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 1112 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 1077 Views
^This. *NM* - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 668 Views
Because it isn't a lie - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 1304 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 1293 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 1065 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 1197 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1325 Views
Quote for you - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 1239 Views
Re: Quote for you - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 1160 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 1089 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 1130 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 1083 Views
Not at all the case - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 1145 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 1250 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 1029 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 1183 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 1022 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 1094 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1381 Views
Sarcasm - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1313 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 1097 Views
Here is what RJ said about it - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 1274 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 550 Views
Like my momma used to say... - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 1185 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 1061 Views
Agreed. - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 1062 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 1118 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1418 Views
No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 1060 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 1074 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 1072 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 1088 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 1055 Views
Where's the problem? - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 996 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 1082 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 1128 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 1265 Views
PS You misread my original quote - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 993 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 1046 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 1169 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 1254 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 1177 Views
We are starting understand each other - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 1126 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 1042 Views
Completely agree - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 1116 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 493 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 1024 Views

Reply to Message