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Because it isn't a lie DomA Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM
If she had said she hadn't noticed outright without any sarcasm then it would be more debatable.


Her statement, sacrastic or not is still a lie... how does this not violate the 1st Oath?


It doesn't matter what words she uses, the binder caught on her intent, on the meaning she was giving her words, which was altered by her tone. Aes Sedai can make a completely false statement if they believe they're telling the truth. It's similar with sarcasm: they are saying one thing, and mean something else. By using a clearly sarcastic tone, Cadsuane made those words mean something else, something which was "true".

She wasn't trying to hide her meaning. By the tone, these words meant something like "everyone in Bandar Eban knows that", which isn't a lie. Not a shred of an attempt to deceive in there. RJ made it very clear the first Oath doesn't hinder Aes Sedai from using sarcasm and exageration at all as long as they don't intend to hide the sarcasm in order to deceive (he gave the example of a blind person asking the colour of something. AS could not answer sarcastically for that, but if the person saw normally they could use sarcasm and say "it's obviously black" - their words meaning "what sort of question is this, you can see as well as I it's white";).

In these cases, it's all about intent. They can mislead by omission too, because the oath stops them from speaking out lies, but doesn't force them to finish statements. They mean to say one thing and end up saying another by stopping in the middle.

Aes Sedai can speak hypothetically - in that case they are bound by the letter of the oath: presenting a true hypothesis without regard for the fact they hope it will be taken for a certainty (as Sarene did with Semirhage: it was a chance in a million that Elaida (or Egwene) would be convinced the woman knew too much to be executed, but that chance in a million was enough for Sarene to say "we may be able to convinced her to lessen your punishments" etc.). There the intent is to deceive, but the "may" makes the statement hypothetically true, so the binder doesn't stop that either.



This message last edited by DomA on 06/12/2009 at 08:09:12 PM
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Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2368 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1579 Views
Sarcasm is one thing - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1264 Views
I disagree - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1234 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 1177 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1232 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 572 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1300 Views
Yes, she did state it. - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 1198 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 1197 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 1160 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 1211 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 1050 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 1015 Views
^This. *NM* - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 616 Views
Because it isn't a lie - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 1234 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 1201 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 1006 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 1135 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1226 Views
Quote for you - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 1173 Views
Re: Quote for you - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 1083 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 999 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 1067 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 1011 Views
Not at all the case - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 1080 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 1178 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 950 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 1094 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 962 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 1016 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1313 Views
Sarcasm - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1238 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 1037 Views
Here is what RJ said about it - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 1198 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 513 Views
Like my momma used to say... - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 1110 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 990 Views
Agreed. - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 997 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 1046 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1343 Views
No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 996 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 1005 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 977 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 1021 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 994 Views
Where's the problem? - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 936 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 1006 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 1032 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 1200 Views
PS You misread my original quote - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 926 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 970 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 1080 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 1151 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 1098 Views
We are starting understand each other - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 1059 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 970 Views
Completely agree - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 1059 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 442 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 958 Views

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