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It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM
The explanation that an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm... this is suddenly much more than a mere loophole in the Oath, it's a pretty massive gap!


So you say "an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm." I'm not so sure. My sense is that if the AS was certain her sarcasm would be understood as such then there's no problem, and conversely if she was certain her sarcasm would be misinterpreted then she would be unable to say it.

Can you describe a hypothetical situation in which this ability to use sarcasm could be deliberately used as an ability to straight up lie?



"I will speak no word that is not true"

It doesn't make sense that Cadsuane can speak the words "I hadn't noticed" when clearly she had. Obviously her intent was not to deceive Quillan, but the Oath doesn't say "I will speak no words meant o deceive" ... it's a very explicit statement that an AS should be unable to speak the words if they are not in her belief factual.

IMO Cadsuane should not have been able to say that statement in that way... the Oath should have forced her to word her sarcasm differently. It's much like Siuan in NS being unable to exaggerate her work load to Moiraine. The Oath kicked in there even though it was clear that Siuan's intent was not to deceive Moiraine.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Cadsuane lies! darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2424 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! joepo - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1649 Views
Sarcasm is one thing Ryan - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1327 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1298 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic TheCrownless - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 1249 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1305 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* Deadsy - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 612 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying DomA - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1379 Views
Yes, she did state it. Deadsy - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 1270 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. DomA - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 1260 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? DomA - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 1221 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 1271 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 1113 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 1077 Views
^This. *NM* Nate - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 668 Views
Because it isn't a lie DomA - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 1304 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 1293 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. Darth_Katie - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 1065 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 1197 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic DomA - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1325 Views
Quote for you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 1239 Views
Re: Quote for you DomA - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 1160 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 1089 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 1131 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 1084 Views
Not at all the case darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 1146 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? Onarishma - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 1251 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! darius_sedai - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 1029 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? Legolas - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 1183 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? DomA - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 1022 Views
But surely an Aes Sedai can answer a question she hasn't fully heard yet. Legolas - 07/12/2009 03:06:34 PM 1279 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 1094 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... Legolas - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1382 Views
Sarcasm Sidious - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1313 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 1097 Views
Here is what RJ said about it Etzel - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 1274 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 550 Views
Like my momma used to say... Mat_Cauthon33 - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 1185 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 1061 Views
Agreed. johnnymack - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 1062 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 1118 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* BlackAdder - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1418 Views
No, no it doesn't. johnnymack - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 1060 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. Nameless Ashaman - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 1074 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? redhand - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 1072 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate AgentOrange - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 1088 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? redhand - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 1056 Views
Usually you're s'possed to answer with a yes or no. It's easy to tell when you're evasive AgentOrange - 09/12/2009 10:46:58 PM 1144 Views
Where's the problem? Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 997 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 1083 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 1128 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 1266 Views
PS You misread my original quote darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 993 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 1046 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 1169 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote taura-tierno - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 1254 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 1177 Views
We are starting understand each other darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 1126 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 1043 Views
Completely agree darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 1116 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* Lord Haart - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 494 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 1024 Views
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