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Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... Shannow Send a noteboard - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
traveling *is* still a type of talent. Even people that are considered strong in the one power can have difficulties opening up those 4X4pace gateways, when others of the same strength are able to do it with ease. In example: Aviendha now has to use her *entire* strength to open up a gateway that is still smaller than what Elayne is able to create. Now, we know that Aviendha is able to travel normally, without using her entire strength, but she completely forgot how to create the weave she used to instaport to Seandar/Seanchan.

This proves to me that TRAVELING, i.e. the standard weave, is something able to be done by everyone strong enough, and much like the ACTs, some people do better with it than others, even though those that do poorly can be just as intelligent. To go along with this metaphor, Aviendha's hastily erected weave, say the "SATs" of traveling, worked very well for her and would probably work well for several others (we haven't met any specifically) that have problems with the "ACT" method.

The main problem with 3rd age travelers comes from their lack of innovation; most of the Aes Sedai refuse to think anything is possible if they don't already have a weave (or they say it is some lost marvel, never to be seen again, from the AoL). In the Age of Legends, where research was paramount, there might have been as many versions of the traveling weave as there was numbers of channelers strong enough to implement it. Where does it say in the text that all of the forsaken use the *exact* same weave? As long as the basic method of female/male is intact (folding the pattern/boring a hole in the pattern) then the methodology is up to the creativity of the weaver.

thoughts?


The size of the gateway is linked to her potential.
Aviendha and Elayne are of similar strength And Aviendha says that Elayne can make the same size gateway that Aviendha can, only that Elayne uses only a part of her strength for it while Aviendha has to use most of her strength for it.

But the sizes of their gateways are the same. Therefore, gateway size remains an accurate gauge of the channeler's potential strength. They just may use different proportions of their potential to make it.

Same with Flinn. He states in tGS that he isn't as good at making gateways as one of the other Ashaman. But his gateway is still the largest of all the Ashaman with Rand in PoD. So it merely means that Flinn uses more of his strength to make his gateway. But the maximum size of his gateway is not diminished because of it.

Bottomline, the potential strength/gateway size correlation is a solid one, and therefore Rand, Logain, Egwene and others all refer to it as a clear cut rule. The larger your gateway, the stronger you are in the Power. How MUCH of your strength you use to make that gateway does not change the fact that your gateway size and potential strength are correlated.
This message last edited by Shannow on 23/12/2009 at 05:31:03 PM
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I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1573 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 603 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 958 Views
Few glaring errors... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 1135 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 1086 Views
You don't get it, do you... Shannow - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 1070 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? fionwe1987 - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 943 Views
That only strengthens my point. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 1007 Views
No it does not. fionwe1987 - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 1050 Views
What you are missing is that darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 1006 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 1037 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1000 Views
Not correct... Shannow - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 1082 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 968 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 979 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 981 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH redhand - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 1056 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 1089 Views
Corrections Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 1120 Views
No... Shannow - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 1020 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 714 Views
Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler darius_sedai - 25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM 969 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 952 Views
Perhaps... Phelix - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 1066 Views
I've always hated bell curves Ryan - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 1003 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 1027 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 865 Views
Why? Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 994 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 904 Views
Always go back to the evidence... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 1058 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 939 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 944 Views
it's addressed below darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 964 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments darius_sedai - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 982 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 982 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... fionwe1987 - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 998 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 988 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. Phelix - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 878 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1033 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 1025 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 1110 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 990 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 533 Views
Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM 889 Views
It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM 997 Views
Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM 1011 Views
Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 570 Views
LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM 1066 Views
Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM 944 Views
The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM 1119 Views
Beonin's Gateway darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:30:25 PM 978 Views
No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect! Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM 922 Views
Nope, Beonin shouldn't be that strong! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:48:30 PM 907 Views
This is true, however... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 1051 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 1432 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 1068 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 917 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 915 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 502 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 945 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 971 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 954 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 508 Views
No more than yours is! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 956 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 862 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 1068 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 969 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM* Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM 494 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 984 Views
Goodness Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 975 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 920 Views
Since you love Wiki so much darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 922 Views
No you are not Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 990 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 1042 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 1077 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 945 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 971 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 995 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 960 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 946 Views
darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 1223 Views
The pathos of Darius Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 985 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) knightmarea7x - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 885 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 970 Views
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