Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
which makes it more difficult for her to perform the specific weave for Traveling ... she even states in that POV that she is certain she could make a larger Gateway if she used her original Weave!
The Path of Daggers
To Keep the Bargain
The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her.
The Path of Daggers
To Keep the Bargain
The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her.
So this is an exception to the rule. A minority case, else the channelers in the books wouldn't use the rule in the first place. It is never suggested that Egwene suffers from such a "secondary weave" problem. So her 8 foot gateway is a reliable indicator of her strength.
And when Egwene/Siuan says that most Aes Sedai are not strong enough to weave a gateway large enough to walk through, they are not referring to secondary weave problems, they are referring to strength.
The point is, in GENERAL, gateway size is correlated sufficiently to strength that the channelers THEMSELVES use it as an indication of comparative strength. It is not I who dreamed this correlation up out of nowhere. The channelers themselves use it as a rule.
But even more importantly, this is not the central pillar of my argument. It is merely one of MANY corrobarating bits of evidence. In other words, there is a general rule that stronger channelers make larger gateways. So if my model places various channelers in various positions, it is greatly boosted by the fact that these positions also happen to conform to the gateway/strength rule.
But I do not place a modern Aes Sedai at 25 effective strength based on her gateway size. No, I place her there because she is half as strong as Egwene. And I place Ewgene at 50, because Egwene plus Aviendha are manhandled contemptuously by Lanfear, and Egwene plus Elayne are handled like kittens by a underdeveloped Rand, and Egwene herself says that she plus two Moiraine strength channelers would barely match a male Forsaken.
Then, when the gateway rule ALSO confirms these placings, you know you are right in the majority of cases.
It is the WEIGHT of evidence, not one single item, that puts Egwene at 50.
Could you provide me with one solid piece of evidence that places Egwene at 80% of Lanfear's strength?
This message last edited by Shannow on 23/12/2009 at 06:02:34 PM
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
- 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
1460 Views
Few glaring errors...
- 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM
1034 Views
Re: Few glaring errors...
- 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM
980 Views
You don't get it, do you...
- 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM
954 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
- 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
831 Views
What you are missing is that
- 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM
899 Views
I'm not missing it at all..
- 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
924 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text
- 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
891 Views
Not correct...
- 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
971 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence
- 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM
869 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong.
- 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM
870 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy
- 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM
865 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH
- 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM
939 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range...
- 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM
961 Views
Corrections
- 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM
1001 Views
No...
- 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM
873 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM*
- 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM
657 Views
Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler
- 25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM
872 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers
- 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM
843 Views
Perhaps...
- 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM
947 Views
I've always hated bell curves
- 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM
859 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average...
- 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM
896 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve
- 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM
739 Views
Why?
- 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM
888 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the
- 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM
783 Views
Always go back to the evidence...
- 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM
935 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this
- 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM
843 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments
- 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM
878 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem
- 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM
853 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
- 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
909 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
- 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
894 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
- 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM
996 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength
- 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM
877 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM*
- 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM
486 Views
Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent?
- 23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM
786 Views
It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough...
- 23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM
879 Views
Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too
- 23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM
905 Views
Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM*
- 23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
506 Views
LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing
- 23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM
921 Views
Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength...
- 23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM
838 Views
The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work
- 23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM
998 Views
No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect!
- 23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM
824 Views
This is true, however...
- 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM
922 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
- 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
1242 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation
- 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM
968 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
- 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
802 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling
- 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM
811 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM*
- 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM
455 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then?
- 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM
828 Views
And there you have it...Thank you.
- 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM
850 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine
- 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM
835 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM*
- 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM
468 Views
No more than yours is!
- 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM
856 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
- 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM
849 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM*
- 26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM
438 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
- 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM
860 Views
Goodness
- 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM
868 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author
- 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM
810 Views
No you are not
- 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM
867 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this
- 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM
826 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution
- 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM
844 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't)
- 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM
894 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution
- 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM
854 Views


