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Well... Etzel Send a noteboard - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
BS's quotes suggest that there were only SH and Elza involved:

Q. "How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?"

A. "Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her."

We don't know how, but apparently SH gave Elza this knowledge, when she was made into his tool.

That's a huge leap. We have zero evidence that SH would have any such ability! SH could have just taken his "pleasure" with her which as we saw from Mesaana, not pleasant.


BS's statement indicates that the knowledge came from SH (note that BS doesn't say that someone thought AoL weaves) during the process in which Elza became his tool. We really don't know what SH is capable of, but he certainly becomes more and more powerful.


And:

Q: "You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?"

A: "Shaidar Haran needs a minion to most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done."

If Graendal (or one of Moridin's pets) was there, Elza certainly wouldn't be that essential for SH to getting things done. Graendal could have done everything even better than Elza.

Why, when they had a perfectly easy minion at hand, would they risk putting another FS woman in the room with Semi... who was also being tasked with getting back in S'T's good graces?

All I'm saying is that Graendal was the source of teaching Elza the weaves and detected her Compulsion (something SH has not been able to do in the past).


There was no need to teach Elza those things, if Graendal could fetch the Domination Band. Then she could give it Elza. However, that Elza was "essential", indicates that SH had no other minion - like e.g. Graendal - to use in this situation.
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Elza's Compulsion Sidious - 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM 2015 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM 953 Views
I disagree Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM 823 Views
except work with Semirhage! darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM 753 Views
Well... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 852 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM* darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM 295 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM* Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM 269 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM 646 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM 245 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM 584 Views
The question is... Etzel - 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM 602 Views
Re: The question is... darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM 589 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM 647 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM 584 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM 630 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently? darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM 588 Views
Shaidar Haran can't channel. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:34:51 PM 959 Views
I know... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:45:15 PM 813 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM 904 Views
That doesn't prove anything... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM 832 Views
It proves enough for me ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:26:28 PM 739 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything... Sidious - 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM 555 Views
not really darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM 576 Views
I don't understand your theory Sidious - 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM 562 Views
It's very simple darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM 553 Views
So in other words Sidious - 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM 673 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct darius_sedai - 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM 577 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct Sidious - 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM 601 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM 597 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer Sidious - 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM 603 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM 582 Views
Exactly my point darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 06:24:25 PM 617 Views
But by this logic... Etzel - 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM 563 Views
Yes... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM 617 Views
While you are right... Etzel - 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM 600 Views
as we've discussed in another thread darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM 990 Views
I mean... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM 601 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL? darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM 635 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote. Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM 558 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM* darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM 266 Views
Maybe secret BA weaves... Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:37:42 PM 821 Views
Possible since she was the only BA in the area darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:40:38 PM 846 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM 656 Views
I have a hard time... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:17:52 PM 661 Views
I agree with you Sidious - 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM 594 Views
and you may very well be correct darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:39:02 PM 803 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM 665 Views
Anything is possible ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM 675 Views
who knows darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM 640 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ... Shishka - 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM 549 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM 729 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:25:32 PM 615 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:44:26 PM 580 Views
Good point! Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM 659 Views
Re: Good point! Shishka - 15/01/2010 05:30:12 PM 558 Views
I agree Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:50:09 AM 542 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM 624 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM 618 Views
this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM 599 Views
damn double posting darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:56 PM 563 Views
As it is often the case... Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM 658 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please. darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM 611 Views
Well... Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:14:28 PM 509 Views
as I said it's also possible that SH has new abilities darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:33:30 PM 549 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM 656 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM 812 Views
One point darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM 744 Views
Re: One point Oberonus - 14/01/2010 09:32:00 PM 671 Views
Elza truly believes that... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM 665 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion" darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM 717 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed. Cannoli - 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM 640 Views
fair enough darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:34:05 PM 703 Views
Not quite rAndy aL - 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM 682 Views
But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM* Voscaia Sedai - 16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM 265 Views
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