That it doesn't kill the "Graendal was there"-theory, all the quotes rather indicate that truly just SH and Elza were involved - as it seems to be the case in the book - because only these two characters are mentioned regarding the scene. It seems especially unlikely that the Compulsion expert Graendal was apparently needed to find out that Elza was under Compulsion and to teach her the necessary weaves, but that Graendal wouldn't remove the Compulsion then or simply take the DM herself (after probably checking what weaves would actually be needed for Elza to open the box ). It's even said that Elza was "essential" for SH for getting things done (since SH is limited in affecting the physical world), though one wonders why SH couldn't use Graendal, if she was anyway already involved.
Ah, well, we will see.
Ah, well, we will see.
I don't agree with Fionwe, I think that Brandon answered the question in totality.
This debate has originated from the fact that no one believes that SH can detect a weave of saidar on Elza. I don't agree with this. We've seen years ago that Myrddraal can detect even the smallest thread of Earth channeled by Egwene, and SH is a super-fade with vast powers but also vast limitations. Verin also used an angreal to weave the Compulsion so she buried a great deal of saidar in Elza. Not only that, but I believe SH to be a direct part of the Dark One in a Fade's body, and he could have deduced from Elza's behaviour that she was Compelled. He may have ordered her to kill Rand, and seen her struggle to obey despite terrifying her.
Either way, there are far too many flaws in this Graendal theory. He would never have needed one of the lowly Black Ajah to help him if he had Graendal with him. Going to all the trouble of teaching Elza rare weaves would be useless in the presence of a female Forsaken. It's also flawed to think that Graendal is the most logical choice here just because Compulsion is present in the scene. Obviously Cyndane and Moghedien are the most logical choices, being the tame servants of the Nae'blis. Either would do exactly what Moridin or SH wanted, whereas Graendal would not necessarily - she proved that in the Prologue. It's her instinct to toy with Moridin. Furthermore, why would this female Forsaken tell SH who would tell Elza? She'd obviously instruct her directly.
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Elza's Compulsion
- 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM
2086 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
- 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM
1006 Views
I disagree
- 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM
886 Views
except work with Semirhage!
- 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM
810 Views
Well...
- 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
937 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM*
- 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM
321 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM*
- 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM
287 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote
- 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM
693 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM*
- 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM
264 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes
- 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM
639 Views
The question is...
- 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM
650 Views
Re: The question is...
- 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM
643 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM*
- 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM
716 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that
- 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM
639 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though
- 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM
689 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently?
- 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM
639 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ...
- 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM
961 Views
That doesn't prove anything...
- 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM
890 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything...
- 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM
610 Views
not really
- 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM
645 Views
I don't understand your theory
- 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM
617 Views
It's very simple
- 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM
609 Views
So in other words
- 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM
735 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
- 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM
628 Views
- 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM
628 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
- 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM
659 Views
- 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM
659 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head
- 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM
645 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer
- 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM
685 Views
But...
- 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM
647 Views
But by this logic...
- 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM
605 Views
Yes...
- 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM
661 Views
While you are right...
- 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM
649 Views
as we've discussed in another thread
- 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM
1047 Views
I mean...
- 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM
649 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL?
- 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM
688 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote.
- 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM
608 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM*
- 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM
288 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret...
- 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM
716 Views
I agree with you
- 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM
655 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later
- 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM
718 Views
Anything is possible ...
- 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM
726 Views
who knows
- 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM
691 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ...
- 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM
604 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end
- 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM
788 Views
Good point!
- 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM
716 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me
- 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM
673 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me
- 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM
683 Views
this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that
- 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM
661 Views
- 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM
661 Views
As it is often the case...
- 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM
706 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please.
- 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM
664 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
- 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM
711 Views
Uhhh?
- 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM
892 Views
One point
- 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM
786 Views
Elza truly believes that...
- 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM
720 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion"
- 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM
777 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed.
- 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM
701 Views
Not quite
- 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM
726 Views
But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM*
- 16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM
286 Views
