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Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 17/03/2010 10:08:34 PM
I agree - read it in sections or something. We all read a series of novels that produce 3+ inch thick paperbacks!

As to the content: I have the easy part, responding to a well-argued opinion. Cannoli makes some excellent points. He also highlights a lot of things nicely, and offers some good critique. Still, he's a little hyperbolic on some points:

-Rand/Perrin/Mat don't have to challenge their beliefs or do bad things for good results (aka "forced to play the nice guy for the greater good";):

Rand terrifies the girls that he grew up with to make sure that DO believes the Two Rivers means nothing to him. Not very nice, making all those hometown girls cry, huh? In TSR, he's repeatedly angered at himself for the dictatorial and threatening way he must deal with Tear's nobility.

Both times, he grapples with doing things he despises to achieve what he needs. I would love a Rand that plays a lot smarter, especially in ways that aren't melodramatically foolish. His list of women is bad, but he feels disgust when he wards a waygate in a cool manner. Still, he was very naive, dealing with a lot on no experience.

Also, I think Rand had his belief system challenged when he learned that he had something that everyone reviled (saidin). Then he was told that he was someone whose name was a blight. He had to learn to accept himself as a channeler, and the role of Dragon (which means he's gonna destroy a lot of people).

Meanwhile, in TEOTW, Perrin has to kill when his wolf-friend is attacked. Perrin always regretted his clash with the Children. Even in killing, he has done things that test his values - in TSR he comes to say "it was kill or be killed."
Later, he devises the worst torture he can think of (for an Aiel) to try to get a location for his wife. That act scared most of the ordinary folk around him. A little later, Perrin allies himself with the Seanchan, which he initially considered about as dark as "a deal with the Dark One."

Mat is hardest to defend on that front. Still, he sacrifices his desire for peace and safety repeatedly. As to the girls, yes, I don't see them compromising themselves much in the way that you describe.

Except in the case of Nynaeve, of course. While she's not a ruler, she had to also accept herself as being something that she reviled. She had much the same position as Rand in that matter - she accepted what she was becoming because she had no choice and because she felt she could do the most good through acceptance.

Cannoli wrote a nice and interesting analysis, regardless of my critique...

One final note: IMO, Tear never fawned over Rand. In one night, their impenetrable seat of power was overtaken by THE DRAGON, destiny, and a force of Aiel who swore to him. They also learned that a Forsaken was quietly running the place. The Tairen nobles decided to talk to the focus of attention, someone they considered human enough to talk to (i.e., Not Aiel). Still, they only did that to manipulate him.
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Did the characters come too easily to power? - 16/03/2010 11:37:31 PM 2036 Views
hehe I think I fell asleep during that read :p *NM* - 17/03/2010 01:12:55 AM 449 Views
Yes, and for Rand at least IMO, playing nice has cost dearly - 17/03/2010 04:59:32 AM 1066 Views
Not necessarily - 18/03/2010 03:17:10 PM 1006 Views
Good post. - 27/03/2010 01:43:24 PM 842 Views
Unfortunately, no. - 31/03/2010 10:23:58 AM 967 Views
Re: Unfortunately, no. - 02/04/2010 07:54:10 AM 784 Views
All the way through, up to ripping her self-delusional assessments of her "achievements" in KoD - 02/04/2010 09:27:54 PM 868 Views
A shame I missed it, then - 04/04/2010 08:55:40 AM 861 Views
Re: A shame I missed it, then - 10/04/2010 08:17:38 AM 832 Views
Cliffs notes anyone? *NM* - 17/03/2010 05:31:02 AM 1556 Views
TLDR *NM* - 17/03/2010 05:43:01 AM 639 Views
Trolloc luRns da Reeading? - 17/03/2010 08:27:23 AM 1121 Views
Too long, didnt read *NM* - 17/03/2010 04:23:34 PM 398 Views
Cmon ppl pls reply to this, Cannoli has spent such a long time writing it.... I couldn't be bothered *NM* - 17/03/2010 10:31:38 AM 420 Views
*NM* - 17/03/2010 10:32:04 AM 424 Views
Re: Did the characters come too easily to power? - 17/03/2010 01:38:02 PM 967 Views
Thank you *NM* - 18/03/2010 03:17:52 PM 502 Views
I agree, very well written and thought out. - 19/03/2010 07:32:59 AM 925 Views
I did read it and it was good - 17/03/2010 02:33:26 PM 839 Views
I agree... *NM* - 17/03/2010 02:48:19 PM 442 Views
That depends on certain interpretations... - 18/03/2010 03:29:15 PM 1080 Views
Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall... - 17/03/2010 02:49:55 PM 943 Views
Re: Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall... - 17/03/2010 06:15:18 PM 902 Views
I agree - 18/03/2010 03:35:05 PM 1030 Views
Strong vs. Hard in other words - 19/03/2010 05:10:41 AM 894 Views
Loooong *NM* - 17/03/2010 03:52:25 PM 477 Views
Look who's talking - look at how you write "long" ! - 18/03/2010 02:06:42 PM 803 Views
Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 17/03/2010 05:35:08 PM 895 Views
Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 17/03/2010 10:08:34 PM 1049 Views
Oh and I forgot to add - 18/03/2010 01:41:28 AM 942 Views
Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 18/03/2010 03:37:09 PM 926 Views
I think this is an excellent analysis - 18/03/2010 01:56:33 PM 977 Views
Thanks. *NM* - 18/03/2010 04:28:52 PM 479 Views
While most of this is true... - 19/03/2010 06:47:19 AM 839 Views
Siuan's failure to properly help Rand should motivate Egwene to overthrow...oh, right. Egwene. - 19/03/2010 11:52:10 PM 868 Views
What do you mean by "properly"? - 20/03/2010 07:57:26 AM 819 Views
She did that because the Black Ajah was her personal boogeyman - 20/03/2010 09:58:54 AM 1015 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 06/04/2010 06:00:07 AM 898 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 07/04/2010 11:31:47 PM 1101 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 09/04/2010 06:22:38 AM 811 Views

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