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Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 17/03/2010 10:08:34 PM
I agree - read it in sections or something. We all read a series of novels that produce 3+ inch thick paperbacks!

As to the content: I have the easy part, responding to a well-argued opinion. Cannoli makes some excellent points. He also highlights a lot of things nicely, and offers some good critique. Still, he's a little hyperbolic on some points:

-Rand/Perrin/Mat don't have to challenge their beliefs or do bad things for good results (aka "forced to play the nice guy for the greater good";):

Rand terrifies the girls that he grew up with to make sure that DO believes the Two Rivers means nothing to him. Not very nice, making all those hometown girls cry, huh? In TSR, he's repeatedly angered at himself for the dictatorial and threatening way he must deal with Tear's nobility.

Both times, he grapples with doing things he despises to achieve what he needs. I would love a Rand that plays a lot smarter, especially in ways that aren't melodramatically foolish. His list of women is bad, but he feels disgust when he wards a waygate in a cool manner. Still, he was very naive, dealing with a lot on no experience.

Also, I think Rand had his belief system challenged when he learned that he had something that everyone reviled (saidin). Then he was told that he was someone whose name was a blight. He had to learn to accept himself as a channeler, and the role of Dragon (which means he's gonna destroy a lot of people).

Meanwhile, in TEOTW, Perrin has to kill when his wolf-friend is attacked. Perrin always regretted his clash with the Children. Even in killing, he has done things that test his values - in TSR he comes to say "it was kill or be killed."
Later, he devises the worst torture he can think of (for an Aiel) to try to get a location for his wife. That act scared most of the ordinary folk around him. A little later, Perrin allies himself with the Seanchan, which he initially considered about as dark as "a deal with the Dark One."

Mat is hardest to defend on that front. Still, he sacrifices his desire for peace and safety repeatedly. As to the girls, yes, I don't see them compromising themselves much in the way that you describe.

Except in the case of Nynaeve, of course. While she's not a ruler, she had to also accept herself as being something that she reviled. She had much the same position as Rand in that matter - she accepted what she was becoming because she had no choice and because she felt she could do the most good through acceptance.

Cannoli wrote a nice and interesting analysis, regardless of my critique...

One final note: IMO, Tear never fawned over Rand. In one night, their impenetrable seat of power was overtaken by THE DRAGON, destiny, and a force of Aiel who swore to him. They also learned that a Forsaken was quietly running the place. The Tairen nobles decided to talk to the focus of attention, someone they considered human enough to talk to (i.e., Not Aiel). Still, they only did that to manipulate him.
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Did the characters come too easily to power? - 16/03/2010 11:37:31 PM 1787 Views
hehe I think I fell asleep during that read :p *NM* - 17/03/2010 01:12:55 AM 369 Views
Yes, and for Rand at least IMO, playing nice has cost dearly - 17/03/2010 04:59:32 AM 828 Views
Not necessarily - 18/03/2010 03:17:10 PM 775 Views
Good post. - 27/03/2010 01:43:24 PM 637 Views
Unfortunately, no. - 31/03/2010 10:23:58 AM 747 Views
Re: Unfortunately, no. - 02/04/2010 07:54:10 AM 582 Views
All the way through, up to ripping her self-delusional assessments of her "achievements" in KoD - 02/04/2010 09:27:54 PM 655 Views
A shame I missed it, then - 04/04/2010 08:55:40 AM 650 Views
Re: A shame I missed it, then - 10/04/2010 08:17:38 AM 615 Views
Cliffs notes anyone? *NM* - 17/03/2010 05:31:02 AM 1449 Views
TLDR *NM* - 17/03/2010 05:43:01 AM 531 Views
Trolloc luRns da Reeading? - 17/03/2010 08:27:23 AM 771 Views
Too long, didnt read *NM* - 17/03/2010 04:23:34 PM 311 Views
Cmon ppl pls reply to this, Cannoli has spent such a long time writing it.... I couldn't be bothered *NM* - 17/03/2010 10:31:38 AM 334 Views
*NM* - 17/03/2010 10:32:04 AM 343 Views
Re: Did the characters come too easily to power? - 17/03/2010 01:38:02 PM 762 Views
Thank you *NM* - 18/03/2010 03:17:52 PM 424 Views
I agree, very well written and thought out. - 19/03/2010 07:32:59 AM 709 Views
I did read it and it was good - 17/03/2010 02:33:26 PM 644 Views
I agree... *NM* - 17/03/2010 02:48:19 PM 360 Views
That depends on certain interpretations... - 18/03/2010 03:29:15 PM 858 Views
Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall... - 17/03/2010 02:49:55 PM 722 Views
Re: Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall... - 17/03/2010 06:15:18 PM 694 Views
I agree - 18/03/2010 03:35:05 PM 789 Views
Strong vs. Hard in other words - 19/03/2010 05:10:41 AM 626 Views
Loooong *NM* - 17/03/2010 03:52:25 PM 378 Views
Look who's talking - look at how you write "long" ! - 18/03/2010 02:06:42 PM 625 Views
Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 17/03/2010 05:35:08 PM 710 Views
Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 17/03/2010 10:08:34 PM 834 Views
Oh and I forgot to add - 18/03/2010 01:41:28 AM 738 Views
Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 18/03/2010 03:37:09 PM 717 Views
I think this is an excellent analysis - 18/03/2010 01:56:33 PM 711 Views
Thanks. *NM* - 18/03/2010 04:28:52 PM 390 Views
While most of this is true... - 19/03/2010 06:47:19 AM 618 Views
Siuan's failure to properly help Rand should motivate Egwene to overthrow...oh, right. Egwene. - 19/03/2010 11:52:10 PM 669 Views
What do you mean by "properly"? - 20/03/2010 07:57:26 AM 636 Views
She did that because the Black Ajah was her personal boogeyman - 20/03/2010 09:58:54 AM 769 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 06/04/2010 06:00:07 AM 674 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 07/04/2010 11:31:47 PM 896 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 09/04/2010 06:22:38 AM 614 Views

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