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Re: Again... Camilla Send a noteboard - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM

Yes. Unless they were not yet hidden by the Fidelius Charm at that point. As I said, I don't have my books at hand. Does it state unequivocally that they were hidden by the charm when the letter was written?

Well, I checked, and its pretty much proved that they were indeed under the charm.


What I mean is, does the letter have a date, for example. That would constitute "proof". "Pretty much proved" isn't really enough. This is a total waste of time, not to mention in entirely the wrong place.

Dumbledore in the last part of DH:

You have guessed, I know, why the Cloak was in my possession

on the night your parents died. James had showed it to me just

a few days previously.

There. We know the Potters died about a week after the charm. The cloak left them a "few days" before their death. Now, it isn't certain that few days>around a week here, but it seems to be so.

Further, Lily says that Wormtail dropped by last weekend and looked down, which Harry immediately says must have been the last time he saw them, after which he betrayed them.

Plus (wow, never knew this tiny detail from book 1 could be so critical), we know that Harry was delivered to Petunia's house on a Tuesday night (When Mr. and Mrs. Durs ley woke up on the dull, grey Tuesday our story starts...). In the morning, word of the Potter's death was spreading, so the death must have been on Monday. The letter then had to have been written between the previous Sunday and the Sunday before their death. Since Lily says last weekend, rather than x number of days ago, this leads me to believe it was written between Thurday and Sunday. Either way, this is way less than one week before their death, meaning several things:

1) Since Lily says Bathilda visits often (with no indication of discontinuance), this means Bathilda must have been quite addled not to reveal that Sirius wasn't Secret Keeper.

2) Since well after the charm kicked into effect, James couldn't leave the house without the Invisibility Cloak, the theory that his family, and not his house, was the subject of the charm is completely disproved.

Because you have still not shown that they were hidden by the Charm at that point. I don't have the books here, and nothing of what you have quoted states that unequivocally.

Perhaps it might be better to hold off this discussion until we reach the relevant book.

See above. This book has suddenly become very relevant. :P


They could drop down to the post office? I thought they couldn't leave the house in your scenario.

If they left, they wouldn't be hidden. Just like outside of Grimmauld Plce, the Order isn't invisible.


I know that. I am just demonstrating that you are contradicting your earlier "proof".

See above. Also, that would be equally unproblematic if they were hidden, rather than their house. It contributes nothing to your argument if that were the case.

If they were hidden, how did they convince the people at the post office to give them anything? Or are you saying they sneaked in and took stuff?


I am not saying they did, I am saying it is an equally plausible explanation, and that your claim that it "proves" something therefore does not hold. I am not trying to prove a position, all I am arguing is that it is not as clear as you have been claiming.

Either way, turns out Petunia's vase was sent for Christmas, so that isn't a problem. Sirius's gift to Harry is, though. But since he was likely told by Pettigrew, maybe he could have an owl deliver?


*sigh*
That is just the point. How would the owl find the house?

That depends entirely on what they do for the Order. We are getting into the realm of unfounded speculation.

Oh come on! They fought Voldy four times and survived. Which means they were threatened. Which means they were seen, and which also means they moved their arses from Godric's Hollow (unless you want to claim they fought Voldemort at home 4 times). That's quite enough detail into what they did, and staying at home didn't come into it.


They fought Voldemort four times and survived. No arguments here. That meant leaving the house, of course. You are setting up straw man arguments. These were also times when they did have the invisibility cloak, for example. And before they had a child, I believe. There are any number of reasons they may have been in a different type of hiding before taking on fully fledged Fidelius Charm protection. We are talking about a short period, and whether they were necessarily covered by the charm at this point. Or, rather, I am discussing whether the things to declare "proven" are really "proven", because they cannot be "proven" if there are other plausible explanations. The fact is this part of the narrative is inconclusive. This is not surprising. It is a trait of fiction, or indeed of much writing.

See, it is perfectly possible to use "destination" and "sight" figuratively. It proves nothing either way.

How was it used figuratively? He saw a building and said he had reached his destination. The meaning is quite clear and direct.

What will constitute proof for you? A statement from Voldemort that he meant the house, and four witnesses to attest to his honesty and sanity? We're discussing stuff from a novel here. All we can take is the meaning of the words in it. And it clearly states that Voldemort thought the house was his destination, and he says that since he can see it, the charm must be broken.


Yes, we are discussing stuff from a novel. That is precisely my point. And the meaning of the words in a novel can rarely be taken interpreted in only one, unequivocal way. You are attempting to present your interpretation of events as "fact", which it is not. That is all I am disputing. I am not even trying to argue a point, as I am very aware that I do not have the books on hand, and I haven't read them in a while. All I am doing is questioning your claim to being the sole arbiter of the meaning of the words in the novel by presenting alternative interpretations of what you present as "proof".

"Destination" could have been used on anything from the death of the child to whoknowswhat. It functions as a very wide metaphor when used figuratively.

But how is it figurative in this instance? I'm quite at a loss over your confusion here.


It is not confusion. It is an awareness that language is not maths.

Because it is not conclusive. It is suggestive, but can be explained away.

Nope. See above on that. There's a plot hole here, pure and simple.


There may be a plot hole, but it is not pure and simple.

By that argument, they could have gone to Hogwarts and started killing children to force the Potters out. It is not an argument.

But Dumbledore was at Hogwarts. He wasn't at Godric's Hollow. Something being impossible at Hogwarts doesn't in any way mean it is impossible elsewhere.


Jesus Christ. Do you really not understand what I am trying to say? The point is that if Voldemort were to employ that sort of tactics, it would not matter what sort of invisible the Potters were. Hogwarts was just an example. They could go to a muggle cinema, they could go to Oxford Street, they could start killing randomly. I was just demonstrating to you that your argument is not an argument.


Now, can we drop this until it becomes relevant?
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Harry Potter Re-read: The Philosopher's Stone - Final section underway! (& next book plans) - 12/07/2010 08:27:51 AM 3753 Views
Chapters 1-3: Introducing Harry - 12/07/2010 08:28:49 AM 1981 Views
Characterisation *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:02 AM 1140 Views
My thoughts, such as they are. - 12/07/2010 04:09:55 PM 2090 Views
Agree. She gave us enough to make it interesting. - 12/07/2010 06:45:46 PM 2016 Views
Re: My thoughts, such as they are. *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:43:49 PM 2034 Views
You hit the nail on the head. - 13/07/2010 12:20:19 AM 1927 Views
Re: You hit the nail on the head. - 13/07/2010 08:51:45 AM 1875 Views
Writing style *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:18 AM 1118 Views
A couple of points. - 12/07/2010 04:10:20 PM 1867 Views
It is very clear it is a children's book at this time - 12/07/2010 07:18:14 PM 2072 Views
True. - 12/07/2010 07:36:49 PM 2012 Views
Re: It is very clear it is a children's book at this time - 12/07/2010 09:31:11 PM 2232 Views
Re: It is very clear it is a children's book at this time - 12/07/2010 09:51:23 PM 1803 Views
Vernon's slow descent into madness is great. - 13/07/2010 04:03:26 AM 2064 Views
Re: Vernon's slow descent into madness is great. - 13/07/2010 08:54:40 AM 2012 Views
Re: Vernon's slow descent into madness is great. - 13/07/2010 01:14:01 PM 2063 Views
Indeed. - 13/07/2010 01:15:23 PM 1850 Views
Early themes *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:37 AM 1212 Views
Strong vs weak *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:23:45 PM 1826 Views
- 12/07/2010 07:43:27 PM 1873 Views
Re: - 12/07/2010 07:44:56 PM 1838 Views
Chapters 4-10: Making Friends at Hogwarts *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:58 AM 1058 Views
Impressions: thoughts about the school, the teachers, the enemies and the friends. *NM* - 14/07/2010 08:29:38 AM 1096 Views
I'd forgotten how annoying Hermione was - 14/07/2010 01:48:13 PM 1924 Views
Me too. - 14/07/2010 04:30:13 PM 1837 Views
Yep. I like seeing her transformation in this story though. - 14/07/2010 04:58:04 PM 1874 Views
Some thoughts before I run off to the library again - 14/07/2010 06:11:45 PM 2103 Views
Good points - 14/07/2010 08:45:56 PM 1990 Views
What about the magic? - 14/07/2010 08:58:51 AM 1889 Views
The magic wasnt really developed at this point - 14/07/2010 02:13:41 PM 1817 Views
Re: The magic wasnt really developed at this point - 14/07/2010 08:53:08 PM 2058 Views
There was one powerful protection - 15/07/2010 01:29:49 AM 2000 Views
I agree - 15/07/2010 04:51:05 AM 1989 Views
Re: I agree - 15/07/2010 05:44:41 AM 1856 Views
Re: There was one powerful protection - 15/07/2010 08:12:40 AM 2151 Views
I think - 14/07/2010 04:34:30 PM 1823 Views
Diagon Alley - Olivander's Foreshadowing - 14/07/2010 05:11:40 PM 2116 Views
Re: Diagon Alley - Olivander's Foreshadowing - 14/07/2010 08:51:06 PM 1816 Views
Agreed. - 14/07/2010 08:57:55 PM 1853 Views
I really need a remembrall. - 14/07/2010 08:57:10 PM 2017 Views
I felt bad for Neville. - 14/07/2010 09:03:49 PM 1968 Views
Indeed. - 14/07/2010 09:05:40 PM 1837 Views
But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten! - 15/07/2010 02:51:47 AM 2124 Views
I know, right! - 15/07/2010 06:41:01 AM 1827 Views
Exactly. - 15/07/2010 03:22:18 PM 1776 Views
Re: But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten! - 15/07/2010 08:15:55 AM 1882 Views
Ah, see - 15/07/2010 03:23:49 PM 1800 Views
Chapters 11-17: Harry the Hero *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:30:29 AM 1076 Views
What'd you think of the ending? *NM* - 15/07/2010 05:21:38 PM 1039 Views
Loved it. - 15/07/2010 05:56:06 PM 1888 Views
Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 07:14:08 PM 1879 Views
I hear you - 15/07/2010 08:22:05 PM 1912 Views
Re: Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 08:48:21 PM 1883 Views
I can clarify some stuff for you - 15/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 1976 Views
One of the most sublime, wonderful moments of any book - 15/07/2010 08:18:29 PM 1745 Views
Yes! - 15/07/2010 10:39:11 PM 1913 Views
Lovely - 15/07/2010 09:00:11 PM 1988 Views
Haha - 15/07/2010 09:16:16 PM 2058 Views
Re: Haha - 15/07/2010 09:24:06 PM 1961 Views
But I thought all girls were made of sugar and spice and everything nice? - 15/07/2010 09:26:53 PM 1816 Views
Oh, we are. - 15/07/2010 09:35:17 PM 1729 Views
Ah like vodka vs. wine coolers? *NM* - 15/07/2010 09:48:26 PM 1021 Views
Gin - 15/07/2010 09:49:33 PM 1848 Views
I was 16. - 15/07/2010 10:49:33 PM 1737 Views
So was I - 15/07/2010 10:54:24 PM 1775 Views
Honestly, dumbledore is a bit of an ass... - 15/07/2010 10:48:32 PM 1746 Views
Heresy! - 15/07/2010 10:55:28 PM 1766 Views
As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 03:05:05 AM 2066 Views
Re: As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 11:14:56 AM 1931 Views
In fairness, it's Hogwarts itself that is all but impregnable. - 26/07/2010 03:55:02 PM 1859 Views
A funny thing I noticed - 15/07/2010 09:00:42 PM 1964 Views
- 15/07/2010 09:18:08 PM 1815 Views
Overall thoughts for the book - 12/07/2010 08:31:37 AM 1886 Views
Foreshadowing and setting up the future - 12/07/2010 08:32:10 AM 1814 Views
Harry's anger management issues? - 12/07/2010 07:14:58 PM 1885 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:40:40 PM 1912 Views
Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:14:20 PM 1978 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:55:32 PM 1900 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:02:59 PM 1835 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:04:42 PM 1935 Views
I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:22:54 PM 2010 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:39:25 PM 1927 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:45:32 PM 1922 Views
~smug~ - 13/07/2010 02:09:15 PM 1889 Views
Indeed. - 13/07/2010 02:10:41 PM 2145 Views
This response implies the experience of being both?? - 13/07/2010 03:23:29 PM 1889 Views
On Ginny: - 12/07/2010 10:36:47 PM 2014 Views
So much (chapters 1-3) *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:35:57 PM 2133 Views
Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:38:05 PM 1951 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:08 PM 1973 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:53 PM 1773 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:44:16 PM 1692 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 04:41:12 AM 1788 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 08:55:09 AM 1836 Views
I missed the school roof thing this time around too! Good catch there. *NM* - 12/07/2010 09:22:21 PM 1064 Views
The thing that tipped me off - 12/07/2010 09:53:01 PM 1884 Views
Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 09:18:35 PM 2091 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:30:23 PM 1918 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:55:01 PM 1861 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 11:05:59 PM 1886 Views
I can answer your consistency question! - 15/07/2010 02:35:42 AM 2029 Views
You are a clever cookie. - 15/07/2010 08:14:25 AM 1880 Views
Yes - 15/07/2010 03:30:36 PM 1717 Views
Ooh, yes. - 16/07/2010 12:19:13 AM 1737 Views
More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 08:55:34 PM 1762 Views
Re: More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 09:19:13 PM 1875 Views
Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:23:15 PM 1966 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:28:04 PM 1866 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 07:12:39 PM 2121 Views
I like it. Thank you. - 20/07/2010 12:53:37 AM 2066 Views
What made this book (and the rest of the series) such a success? - 12/07/2010 08:33:00 AM 1990 Views
I have no idea *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:47:58 PM 2083 Views
I agree... - 12/07/2010 09:19:59 PM 2062 Views
It has tons of things in it that every kid dreams of doing - 14/07/2010 01:56:05 PM 1993 Views
Kid? - 14/07/2010 02:01:30 PM 1984 Views
so do I. I was just trying to act mature *NM* - 14/07/2010 02:08:01 PM 1217 Views
Not even just the super stuff Deadsy mentions. - 14/07/2010 04:38:46 PM 2112 Views
It's a simple, well-done little book. - 12/07/2010 07:46:48 PM 1992 Views
you don't read instructions, do you? - 12/07/2010 07:49:24 PM 2039 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:50:23 PM 1970 Views
Re: Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:51:40 PM 1963 Views
Awwww! - 12/07/2010 07:52:19 PM 1914 Views
- 12/07/2010 07:52:52 PM 2012 Views
Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:50:44 PM 2023 Views
Re: Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:52:21 PM 1983 Views
Pff. - 12/07/2010 07:54:54 PM 1984 Views
*NM* - 12/07/2010 07:56:03 PM 1221 Views
When did you pick up this book? - 12/07/2010 11:30:46 PM 1916 Views
I was 10. - 13/07/2010 04:13:44 AM 2056 Views
I was 16. - 13/07/2010 08:24:02 AM 1976 Views
1999 - 13/07/2010 09:03:03 AM 1972 Views
What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:15:40 PM 2094 Views
Re: What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:17:40 PM 1979 Views
Just before the first movie came out - 13/07/2010 02:17:42 PM 2135 Views
When Prisoner of Azkaban was a hardback. - 13/07/2010 02:23:57 PM 2000 Views
Just after Goblet of Fire was published. - 13/07/2010 11:50:38 PM 2069 Views
Just before Goblet of Fire came out. - 14/07/2010 04:04:21 AM 2009 Views
The first five were out, waited for HBP. - 14/07/2010 06:20:39 AM 2133 Views
You're making me want to talk about toadface - 14/07/2010 02:06:25 PM 2021 Views
Sorry! - 15/07/2010 06:36:11 AM 2090 Views
I held out quite awhile because I don't like "fads" - 14/07/2010 02:04:37 PM 1964 Views
Lol! - 14/07/2010 08:54:47 PM 2062 Views
I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 06:39:16 AM 2070 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 10:01:04 AM 2235 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 05:44:28 PM 2142 Views
I would have, if I had known there was hype. I know I would have. - 15/07/2010 03:28:50 PM 2124 Views
- 15/07/2010 05:47:01 PM 2142 Views
I think I was first! - 23/07/2010 07:05:08 PM 2076 Views
Aged 13 or 14 - a while before the first movie (which was Christmas 2001). *NM* - 26/07/2010 04:13:55 PM 1239 Views
Jesus Christ. - 26/07/2010 05:04:46 PM 2212 Views
^That was me. *NM* - 26/07/2010 09:55:49 PM 1225 Views
I was going to ask if it was. *NM* - 26/07/2010 10:04:59 PM 1199 Views
Suggestions for the Re-read - 12/07/2010 08:33:25 AM 2023 Views
I like it so far - 13/07/2010 10:16:49 AM 2002 Views
I can try that for the next book. - 13/07/2010 11:21:01 PM 1989 Views
Can we get chapter discussions everyday? *NM* - 15/07/2010 06:40:30 PM 1173 Views
Inconsistencies Re: the Potter's death... - 15/07/2010 05:16:45 AM 2352 Views
Because they were tricked? They considered Peter and Sirius to be brothers. - 15/07/2010 07:05:27 AM 1993 Views
That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 01:08:40 AM 1936 Views
Take it up with Rowling, since you don't believe me. *NM* - 16/07/2010 08:19:58 AM 1111 Views
What's there to believe? - 18/07/2010 06:03:13 AM 2014 Views
Re: That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 09:37:59 AM 2129 Views
Also - 16/07/2010 11:17:51 AM 2356 Views
You are correct! There is no inconsistency - 17/07/2010 04:17:35 AM 2068 Views
Huh? - 18/07/2010 05:57:58 AM 1907 Views
But Camilla explained it! - 18/07/2010 09:27:55 AM 2240 Views
Correction - 18/07/2010 10:58:59 AM 2042 Views
I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:42:18 PM 1932 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:51:36 PM 1955 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:17:04 PM 2247 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:28:27 PM 1953 Views
That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:17:14 PM 2027 Views
Re: That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:20:44 PM 1897 Views
Yet... - 18/07/2010 07:47:56 PM 1969 Views
Re: Yet... - 18/07/2010 08:02:31 PM 1984 Views
To quote Dumbledore... - 19/07/2010 05:57:23 AM 1882 Views
Again... - 18/07/2010 07:35:10 PM 2195 Views
Re: Again... - 18/07/2010 08:00:55 PM 1993 Views
Re: Again... - 19/07/2010 06:33:13 AM 2185 Views
Re: Again... - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM 2007 Views
Yet another load of bosh. - 21/07/2010 01:00:14 AM 1988 Views
Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 06:48:45 AM 2105 Views
Re: Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 04:19:35 PM 1990 Views
My two cents - 19/07/2010 06:11:30 AM 2059 Views
It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 12:11:20 AM 2464 Views
Re: It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 09:20:46 AM 1881 Views
You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 04:23:31 PM 1976 Views
Re: You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 05:06:43 PM 2197 Views
I don't know that I'd call it "see through Pettigrew"... - 26/07/2010 06:22:19 PM 1939 Views
^That was me, too. Oh, dear. - 26/07/2010 09:56:43 PM 2188 Views
Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 18/07/2010 07:14:21 PM 1978 Views
Re: Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 26/07/2010 05:07:48 PM 2411 Views
^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 09:58:07 PM 1996 Views
Re: ^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 10:05:41 PM 1901 Views
- 26/07/2010 10:07:36 PM 1808 Views

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