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Re: Again... Camilla Send a noteboard - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM

Yes. Unless they were not yet hidden by the Fidelius Charm at that point. As I said, I don't have my books at hand. Does it state unequivocally that they were hidden by the charm when the letter was written?

Well, I checked, and its pretty much proved that they were indeed under the charm.


What I mean is, does the letter have a date, for example. That would constitute "proof". "Pretty much proved" isn't really enough. This is a total waste of time, not to mention in entirely the wrong place.

Dumbledore in the last part of DH:

You have guessed, I know, why the Cloak was in my possession

on the night your parents died. James had showed it to me just

a few days previously.

There. We know the Potters died about a week after the charm. The cloak left them a "few days" before their death. Now, it isn't certain that few days>around a week here, but it seems to be so.

Further, Lily says that Wormtail dropped by last weekend and looked down, which Harry immediately says must have been the last time he saw them, after which he betrayed them.

Plus (wow, never knew this tiny detail from book 1 could be so critical), we know that Harry was delivered to Petunia's house on a Tuesday night (When Mr. and Mrs. Durs ley woke up on the dull, grey Tuesday our story starts...). In the morning, word of the Potter's death was spreading, so the death must have been on Monday. The letter then had to have been written between the previous Sunday and the Sunday before their death. Since Lily says last weekend, rather than x number of days ago, this leads me to believe it was written between Thurday and Sunday. Either way, this is way less than one week before their death, meaning several things:

1) Since Lily says Bathilda visits often (with no indication of discontinuance), this means Bathilda must have been quite addled not to reveal that Sirius wasn't Secret Keeper.

2) Since well after the charm kicked into effect, James couldn't leave the house without the Invisibility Cloak, the theory that his family, and not his house, was the subject of the charm is completely disproved.

Because you have still not shown that they were hidden by the Charm at that point. I don't have the books here, and nothing of what you have quoted states that unequivocally.

Perhaps it might be better to hold off this discussion until we reach the relevant book.

See above. This book has suddenly become very relevant. :P


They could drop down to the post office? I thought they couldn't leave the house in your scenario.

If they left, they wouldn't be hidden. Just like outside of Grimmauld Plce, the Order isn't invisible.


I know that. I am just demonstrating that you are contradicting your earlier "proof".

See above. Also, that would be equally unproblematic if they were hidden, rather than their house. It contributes nothing to your argument if that were the case.

If they were hidden, how did they convince the people at the post office to give them anything? Or are you saying they sneaked in and took stuff?


I am not saying they did, I am saying it is an equally plausible explanation, and that your claim that it "proves" something therefore does not hold. I am not trying to prove a position, all I am arguing is that it is not as clear as you have been claiming.

Either way, turns out Petunia's vase was sent for Christmas, so that isn't a problem. Sirius's gift to Harry is, though. But since he was likely told by Pettigrew, maybe he could have an owl deliver?


*sigh*
That is just the point. How would the owl find the house?

That depends entirely on what they do for the Order. We are getting into the realm of unfounded speculation.

Oh come on! They fought Voldy four times and survived. Which means they were threatened. Which means they were seen, and which also means they moved their arses from Godric's Hollow (unless you want to claim they fought Voldemort at home 4 times). That's quite enough detail into what they did, and staying at home didn't come into it.


They fought Voldemort four times and survived. No arguments here. That meant leaving the house, of course. You are setting up straw man arguments. These were also times when they did have the invisibility cloak, for example. And before they had a child, I believe. There are any number of reasons they may have been in a different type of hiding before taking on fully fledged Fidelius Charm protection. We are talking about a short period, and whether they were necessarily covered by the charm at this point. Or, rather, I am discussing whether the things to declare "proven" are really "proven", because they cannot be "proven" if there are other plausible explanations. The fact is this part of the narrative is inconclusive. This is not surprising. It is a trait of fiction, or indeed of much writing.

See, it is perfectly possible to use "destination" and "sight" figuratively. It proves nothing either way.

How was it used figuratively? He saw a building and said he had reached his destination. The meaning is quite clear and direct.

What will constitute proof for you? A statement from Voldemort that he meant the house, and four witnesses to attest to his honesty and sanity? We're discussing stuff from a novel here. All we can take is the meaning of the words in it. And it clearly states that Voldemort thought the house was his destination, and he says that since he can see it, the charm must be broken.


Yes, we are discussing stuff from a novel. That is precisely my point. And the meaning of the words in a novel can rarely be taken interpreted in only one, unequivocal way. You are attempting to present your interpretation of events as "fact", which it is not. That is all I am disputing. I am not even trying to argue a point, as I am very aware that I do not have the books on hand, and I haven't read them in a while. All I am doing is questioning your claim to being the sole arbiter of the meaning of the words in the novel by presenting alternative interpretations of what you present as "proof".

"Destination" could have been used on anything from the death of the child to whoknowswhat. It functions as a very wide metaphor when used figuratively.

But how is it figurative in this instance? I'm quite at a loss over your confusion here.


It is not confusion. It is an awareness that language is not maths.

Because it is not conclusive. It is suggestive, but can be explained away.

Nope. See above on that. There's a plot hole here, pure and simple.


There may be a plot hole, but it is not pure and simple.

By that argument, they could have gone to Hogwarts and started killing children to force the Potters out. It is not an argument.

But Dumbledore was at Hogwarts. He wasn't at Godric's Hollow. Something being impossible at Hogwarts doesn't in any way mean it is impossible elsewhere.


Jesus Christ. Do you really not understand what I am trying to say? The point is that if Voldemort were to employ that sort of tactics, it would not matter what sort of invisible the Potters were. Hogwarts was just an example. They could go to a muggle cinema, they could go to Oxford Street, they could start killing randomly. I was just demonstrating to you that your argument is not an argument.


Now, can we drop this until it becomes relevant?
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Harry Potter Re-read: The Philosopher's Stone - Final section underway! (& next book plans) - 12/07/2010 08:27:51 AM 3787 Views
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A couple of points. - 12/07/2010 04:10:20 PM 1896 Views
It is very clear it is a children's book at this time - 12/07/2010 07:18:14 PM 2106 Views
True. - 12/07/2010 07:36:49 PM 2044 Views
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Re: It is very clear it is a children's book at this time - 12/07/2010 09:51:23 PM 1838 Views
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Re: Vernon's slow descent into madness is great. - 13/07/2010 01:14:01 PM 2098 Views
Indeed. - 13/07/2010 01:15:23 PM 1895 Views
Early themes *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:37 AM 1227 Views
Strong vs weak *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:23:45 PM 1859 Views
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Re: - 12/07/2010 07:44:56 PM 1879 Views
Chapters 4-10: Making Friends at Hogwarts *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:58 AM 1072 Views
Impressions: thoughts about the school, the teachers, the enemies and the friends. *NM* - 14/07/2010 08:29:38 AM 1113 Views
I'd forgotten how annoying Hermione was - 14/07/2010 01:48:13 PM 1961 Views
Me too. - 14/07/2010 04:30:13 PM 1872 Views
Yep. I like seeing her transformation in this story though. - 14/07/2010 04:58:04 PM 1901 Views
Some thoughts before I run off to the library again - 14/07/2010 06:11:45 PM 2143 Views
Good points - 14/07/2010 08:45:56 PM 2036 Views
What about the magic? - 14/07/2010 08:58:51 AM 1917 Views
The magic wasnt really developed at this point - 14/07/2010 02:13:41 PM 1853 Views
Re: The magic wasnt really developed at this point - 14/07/2010 08:53:08 PM 2093 Views
There was one powerful protection - 15/07/2010 01:29:49 AM 2027 Views
I agree - 15/07/2010 04:51:05 AM 2025 Views
Re: I agree - 15/07/2010 05:44:41 AM 1890 Views
Re: There was one powerful protection - 15/07/2010 08:12:40 AM 2185 Views
I think - 14/07/2010 04:34:30 PM 1857 Views
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Re: Diagon Alley - Olivander's Foreshadowing - 14/07/2010 08:51:06 PM 1849 Views
Agreed. - 14/07/2010 08:57:55 PM 1885 Views
I really need a remembrall. - 14/07/2010 08:57:10 PM 2046 Views
I felt bad for Neville. - 14/07/2010 09:03:49 PM 1993 Views
Indeed. - 14/07/2010 09:05:40 PM 1869 Views
But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten! - 15/07/2010 02:51:47 AM 2150 Views
I know, right! - 15/07/2010 06:41:01 AM 1866 Views
Exactly. - 15/07/2010 03:22:18 PM 1808 Views
Re: But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten! - 15/07/2010 08:15:55 AM 1922 Views
Ah, see - 15/07/2010 03:23:49 PM 1832 Views
Chapters 11-17: Harry the Hero *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:30:29 AM 1097 Views
What'd you think of the ending? *NM* - 15/07/2010 05:21:38 PM 1056 Views
Loved it. - 15/07/2010 05:56:06 PM 1919 Views
Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 07:14:08 PM 1909 Views
I hear you - 15/07/2010 08:22:05 PM 1954 Views
Re: Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 08:48:21 PM 1915 Views
I can clarify some stuff for you - 15/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 2015 Views
One of the most sublime, wonderful moments of any book - 15/07/2010 08:18:29 PM 1776 Views
Yes! - 15/07/2010 10:39:11 PM 1946 Views
Lovely - 15/07/2010 09:00:11 PM 2024 Views
Haha - 15/07/2010 09:16:16 PM 2095 Views
Re: Haha - 15/07/2010 09:24:06 PM 1994 Views
But I thought all girls were made of sugar and spice and everything nice? - 15/07/2010 09:26:53 PM 1845 Views
Oh, we are. - 15/07/2010 09:35:17 PM 1762 Views
Ah like vodka vs. wine coolers? *NM* - 15/07/2010 09:48:26 PM 1040 Views
Gin - 15/07/2010 09:49:33 PM 1882 Views
I was 16. - 15/07/2010 10:49:33 PM 1771 Views
So was I - 15/07/2010 10:54:24 PM 1809 Views
Honestly, dumbledore is a bit of an ass... - 15/07/2010 10:48:32 PM 1778 Views
Heresy! - 15/07/2010 10:55:28 PM 1804 Views
As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 03:05:05 AM 2105 Views
Re: As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 11:14:56 AM 1967 Views
In fairness, it's Hogwarts itself that is all but impregnable. - 26/07/2010 03:55:02 PM 1892 Views
A funny thing I noticed - 15/07/2010 09:00:42 PM 2002 Views
- 15/07/2010 09:18:08 PM 1853 Views
Overall thoughts for the book - 12/07/2010 08:31:37 AM 1915 Views
Foreshadowing and setting up the future - 12/07/2010 08:32:10 AM 1840 Views
Harry's anger management issues? - 12/07/2010 07:14:58 PM 1918 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:40:40 PM 1942 Views
Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:14:20 PM 2006 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:55:32 PM 1929 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:02:59 PM 1871 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:04:42 PM 1976 Views
I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:22:54 PM 2036 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:39:25 PM 1961 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:45:32 PM 1951 Views
~smug~ - 13/07/2010 02:09:15 PM 1923 Views
Indeed. - 13/07/2010 02:10:41 PM 2181 Views
This response implies the experience of being both?? - 13/07/2010 03:23:29 PM 1921 Views
On Ginny: - 12/07/2010 10:36:47 PM 2047 Views
So much (chapters 1-3) *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:35:57 PM 2167 Views
Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:38:05 PM 1989 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:08 PM 2002 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:53 PM 1810 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:44:16 PM 1720 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 04:41:12 AM 1816 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 08:55:09 AM 1876 Views
I missed the school roof thing this time around too! Good catch there. *NM* - 12/07/2010 09:22:21 PM 1082 Views
The thing that tipped me off - 12/07/2010 09:53:01 PM 1912 Views
Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 09:18:35 PM 2121 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:30:23 PM 1949 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:55:01 PM 1899 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 11:05:59 PM 1918 Views
I can answer your consistency question! - 15/07/2010 02:35:42 AM 2066 Views
You are a clever cookie. - 15/07/2010 08:14:25 AM 1918 Views
Yes - 15/07/2010 03:30:36 PM 1744 Views
Ooh, yes. - 16/07/2010 12:19:13 AM 1767 Views
More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 08:55:34 PM 1789 Views
Re: More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 09:19:13 PM 1909 Views
Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:23:15 PM 1998 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:28:04 PM 1893 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 07:12:39 PM 2154 Views
I like it. Thank you. - 20/07/2010 12:53:37 AM 2107 Views
What made this book (and the rest of the series) such a success? - 12/07/2010 08:33:00 AM 2028 Views
I have no idea *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:47:58 PM 2106 Views
I agree... - 12/07/2010 09:19:59 PM 2091 Views
It has tons of things in it that every kid dreams of doing - 14/07/2010 01:56:05 PM 2019 Views
Kid? - 14/07/2010 02:01:30 PM 2010 Views
so do I. I was just trying to act mature *NM* - 14/07/2010 02:08:01 PM 1228 Views
Not even just the super stuff Deadsy mentions. - 14/07/2010 04:38:46 PM 2141 Views
It's a simple, well-done little book. - 12/07/2010 07:46:48 PM 2037 Views
you don't read instructions, do you? - 12/07/2010 07:49:24 PM 2064 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:50:23 PM 1996 Views
Re: Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:51:40 PM 1988 Views
Awwww! - 12/07/2010 07:52:19 PM 1940 Views
- 12/07/2010 07:52:52 PM 2038 Views
Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:50:44 PM 2058 Views
Re: Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:52:21 PM 2016 Views
Pff. - 12/07/2010 07:54:54 PM 2009 Views
*NM* - 12/07/2010 07:56:03 PM 1237 Views
When did you pick up this book? - 12/07/2010 11:30:46 PM 1944 Views
I was 10. - 13/07/2010 04:13:44 AM 2081 Views
I was 16. - 13/07/2010 08:24:02 AM 2013 Views
1999 - 13/07/2010 09:03:03 AM 2003 Views
What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:15:40 PM 2123 Views
Re: What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:17:40 PM 2008 Views
Just before the first movie came out - 13/07/2010 02:17:42 PM 2166 Views
When Prisoner of Azkaban was a hardback. - 13/07/2010 02:23:57 PM 2032 Views
Just after Goblet of Fire was published. - 13/07/2010 11:50:38 PM 2096 Views
Just before Goblet of Fire came out. - 14/07/2010 04:04:21 AM 2037 Views
The first five were out, waited for HBP. - 14/07/2010 06:20:39 AM 2164 Views
You're making me want to talk about toadface - 14/07/2010 02:06:25 PM 2046 Views
Sorry! - 15/07/2010 06:36:11 AM 2124 Views
I held out quite awhile because I don't like "fads" - 14/07/2010 02:04:37 PM 1995 Views
Lol! - 14/07/2010 08:54:47 PM 2092 Views
I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 06:39:16 AM 2103 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 10:01:04 AM 2263 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 05:44:28 PM 2171 Views
I would have, if I had known there was hype. I know I would have. - 15/07/2010 03:28:50 PM 2161 Views
- 15/07/2010 05:47:01 PM 2169 Views
I think I was first! - 23/07/2010 07:05:08 PM 2104 Views
Aged 13 or 14 - a while before the first movie (which was Christmas 2001). *NM* - 26/07/2010 04:13:55 PM 1254 Views
Jesus Christ. - 26/07/2010 05:04:46 PM 2235 Views
^That was me. *NM* - 26/07/2010 09:55:49 PM 1258 Views
I was going to ask if it was. *NM* - 26/07/2010 10:04:59 PM 1211 Views
Suggestions for the Re-read - 12/07/2010 08:33:25 AM 2056 Views
I like it so far - 13/07/2010 10:16:49 AM 2026 Views
I can try that for the next book. - 13/07/2010 11:21:01 PM 2014 Views
Can we get chapter discussions everyday? *NM* - 15/07/2010 06:40:30 PM 1188 Views
Inconsistencies Re: the Potter's death... - 15/07/2010 05:16:45 AM 2386 Views
Because they were tricked? They considered Peter and Sirius to be brothers. - 15/07/2010 07:05:27 AM 2021 Views
That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 01:08:40 AM 1969 Views
Take it up with Rowling, since you don't believe me. *NM* - 16/07/2010 08:19:58 AM 1126 Views
What's there to believe? - 18/07/2010 06:03:13 AM 2045 Views
Re: That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 09:37:59 AM 2159 Views
Also - 16/07/2010 11:17:51 AM 2389 Views
You are correct! There is no inconsistency - 17/07/2010 04:17:35 AM 2098 Views
Huh? - 18/07/2010 05:57:58 AM 1941 Views
But Camilla explained it! - 18/07/2010 09:27:55 AM 2272 Views
Correction - 18/07/2010 10:58:59 AM 2077 Views
I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:42:18 PM 1962 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:51:36 PM 1989 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:17:04 PM 2274 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:28:27 PM 1987 Views
That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:17:14 PM 2058 Views
Re: That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:20:44 PM 1928 Views
Yet... - 18/07/2010 07:47:56 PM 2001 Views
Re: Yet... - 18/07/2010 08:02:31 PM 2016 Views
To quote Dumbledore... - 19/07/2010 05:57:23 AM 1914 Views
Again... - 18/07/2010 07:35:10 PM 2228 Views
Re: Again... - 18/07/2010 08:00:55 PM 2022 Views
Re: Again... - 19/07/2010 06:33:13 AM 2215 Views
Re: Again... - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM 2038 Views
Yet another load of bosh. - 21/07/2010 01:00:14 AM 2021 Views
Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 06:48:45 AM 2146 Views
Re: Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 04:19:35 PM 2023 Views
My two cents - 19/07/2010 06:11:30 AM 2094 Views
It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 12:11:20 AM 2499 Views
Re: It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 09:20:46 AM 1907 Views
You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 04:23:31 PM 2006 Views
Re: You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 05:06:43 PM 2217 Views
I don't know that I'd call it "see through Pettigrew"... - 26/07/2010 06:22:19 PM 1973 Views
^That was me, too. Oh, dear. - 26/07/2010 09:56:43 PM 2218 Views
Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 18/07/2010 07:14:21 PM 2012 Views
Re: Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 26/07/2010 05:07:48 PM 2438 Views
^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 09:58:07 PM 2029 Views
Re: ^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 10:05:41 PM 1928 Views
- 26/07/2010 10:07:36 PM 1840 Views

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