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Re: Again... Camilla Send a noteboard - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM

Yes. Unless they were not yet hidden by the Fidelius Charm at that point. As I said, I don't have my books at hand. Does it state unequivocally that they were hidden by the charm when the letter was written?

Well, I checked, and its pretty much proved that they were indeed under the charm.


What I mean is, does the letter have a date, for example. That would constitute "proof". "Pretty much proved" isn't really enough. This is a total waste of time, not to mention in entirely the wrong place.

Dumbledore in the last part of DH:

You have guessed, I know, why the Cloak was in my possession

on the night your parents died. James had showed it to me just

a few days previously.

There. We know the Potters died about a week after the charm. The cloak left them a "few days" before their death. Now, it isn't certain that few days>around a week here, but it seems to be so.

Further, Lily says that Wormtail dropped by last weekend and looked down, which Harry immediately says must have been the last time he saw them, after which he betrayed them.

Plus (wow, never knew this tiny detail from book 1 could be so critical), we know that Harry was delivered to Petunia's house on a Tuesday night (When Mr. and Mrs. Durs ley woke up on the dull, grey Tuesday our story starts...). In the morning, word of the Potter's death was spreading, so the death must have been on Monday. The letter then had to have been written between the previous Sunday and the Sunday before their death. Since Lily says last weekend, rather than x number of days ago, this leads me to believe it was written between Thurday and Sunday. Either way, this is way less than one week before their death, meaning several things:

1) Since Lily says Bathilda visits often (with no indication of discontinuance), this means Bathilda must have been quite addled not to reveal that Sirius wasn't Secret Keeper.

2) Since well after the charm kicked into effect, James couldn't leave the house without the Invisibility Cloak, the theory that his family, and not his house, was the subject of the charm is completely disproved.

Because you have still not shown that they were hidden by the Charm at that point. I don't have the books here, and nothing of what you have quoted states that unequivocally.

Perhaps it might be better to hold off this discussion until we reach the relevant book.

See above. This book has suddenly become very relevant. :P


They could drop down to the post office? I thought they couldn't leave the house in your scenario.

If they left, they wouldn't be hidden. Just like outside of Grimmauld Plce, the Order isn't invisible.


I know that. I am just demonstrating that you are contradicting your earlier "proof".

See above. Also, that would be equally unproblematic if they were hidden, rather than their house. It contributes nothing to your argument if that were the case.

If they were hidden, how did they convince the people at the post office to give them anything? Or are you saying they sneaked in and took stuff?


I am not saying they did, I am saying it is an equally plausible explanation, and that your claim that it "proves" something therefore does not hold. I am not trying to prove a position, all I am arguing is that it is not as clear as you have been claiming.

Either way, turns out Petunia's vase was sent for Christmas, so that isn't a problem. Sirius's gift to Harry is, though. But since he was likely told by Pettigrew, maybe he could have an owl deliver?


*sigh*
That is just the point. How would the owl find the house?

That depends entirely on what they do for the Order. We are getting into the realm of unfounded speculation.

Oh come on! They fought Voldy four times and survived. Which means they were threatened. Which means they were seen, and which also means they moved their arses from Godric's Hollow (unless you want to claim they fought Voldemort at home 4 times). That's quite enough detail into what they did, and staying at home didn't come into it.


They fought Voldemort four times and survived. No arguments here. That meant leaving the house, of course. You are setting up straw man arguments. These were also times when they did have the invisibility cloak, for example. And before they had a child, I believe. There are any number of reasons they may have been in a different type of hiding before taking on fully fledged Fidelius Charm protection. We are talking about a short period, and whether they were necessarily covered by the charm at this point. Or, rather, I am discussing whether the things to declare "proven" are really "proven", because they cannot be "proven" if there are other plausible explanations. The fact is this part of the narrative is inconclusive. This is not surprising. It is a trait of fiction, or indeed of much writing.

See, it is perfectly possible to use "destination" and "sight" figuratively. It proves nothing either way.

How was it used figuratively? He saw a building and said he had reached his destination. The meaning is quite clear and direct.

What will constitute proof for you? A statement from Voldemort that he meant the house, and four witnesses to attest to his honesty and sanity? We're discussing stuff from a novel here. All we can take is the meaning of the words in it. And it clearly states that Voldemort thought the house was his destination, and he says that since he can see it, the charm must be broken.


Yes, we are discussing stuff from a novel. That is precisely my point. And the meaning of the words in a novel can rarely be taken interpreted in only one, unequivocal way. You are attempting to present your interpretation of events as "fact", which it is not. That is all I am disputing. I am not even trying to argue a point, as I am very aware that I do not have the books on hand, and I haven't read them in a while. All I am doing is questioning your claim to being the sole arbiter of the meaning of the words in the novel by presenting alternative interpretations of what you present as "proof".

"Destination" could have been used on anything from the death of the child to whoknowswhat. It functions as a very wide metaphor when used figuratively.

But how is it figurative in this instance? I'm quite at a loss over your confusion here.


It is not confusion. It is an awareness that language is not maths.

Because it is not conclusive. It is suggestive, but can be explained away.

Nope. See above on that. There's a plot hole here, pure and simple.


There may be a plot hole, but it is not pure and simple.

By that argument, they could have gone to Hogwarts and started killing children to force the Potters out. It is not an argument.

But Dumbledore was at Hogwarts. He wasn't at Godric's Hollow. Something being impossible at Hogwarts doesn't in any way mean it is impossible elsewhere.


Jesus Christ. Do you really not understand what I am trying to say? The point is that if Voldemort were to employ that sort of tactics, it would not matter what sort of invisible the Potters were. Hogwarts was just an example. They could go to a muggle cinema, they could go to Oxford Street, they could start killing randomly. I was just demonstrating to you that your argument is not an argument.


Now, can we drop this until it becomes relevant?
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Harry Potter Re-read: The Philosopher's Stone - Final section underway! (& next book plans) - 12/07/2010 08:27:51 AM 2940 Views
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You hit the nail on the head. - 13/07/2010 12:20:19 AM 1450 Views
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A couple of points. - 12/07/2010 04:10:20 PM 1409 Views
It is very clear it is a children's book at this time - 12/07/2010 07:18:14 PM 1577 Views
True. - 12/07/2010 07:36:49 PM 1511 Views
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Re: It is very clear it is a children's book at this time - 12/07/2010 09:51:23 PM 1335 Views
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Re: Vernon's slow descent into madness is great. - 13/07/2010 01:14:01 PM 1574 Views
Indeed. - 13/07/2010 01:15:23 PM 1353 Views
Early themes *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:37 AM 866 Views
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Re: - 12/07/2010 07:44:56 PM 1341 Views
Chapters 4-10: Making Friends at Hogwarts *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:29:58 AM 794 Views
Impressions: thoughts about the school, the teachers, the enemies and the friends. *NM* - 14/07/2010 08:29:38 AM 834 Views
I'd forgotten how annoying Hermione was - 14/07/2010 01:48:13 PM 1433 Views
Me too. - 14/07/2010 04:30:13 PM 1388 Views
Yep. I like seeing her transformation in this story though. - 14/07/2010 04:58:04 PM 1436 Views
Some thoughts before I run off to the library again - 14/07/2010 06:11:45 PM 1569 Views
Good points - 14/07/2010 08:45:56 PM 1485 Views
What about the magic? - 14/07/2010 08:58:51 AM 1441 Views
The magic wasnt really developed at this point - 14/07/2010 02:13:41 PM 1359 Views
Re: The magic wasnt really developed at this point - 14/07/2010 08:53:08 PM 1594 Views
There was one powerful protection - 15/07/2010 01:29:49 AM 1538 Views
I agree - 15/07/2010 04:51:05 AM 1484 Views
Re: I agree - 15/07/2010 05:44:41 AM 1371 Views
Re: There was one powerful protection - 15/07/2010 08:12:40 AM 1635 Views
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Agreed. - 14/07/2010 08:57:55 PM 1406 Views
I really need a remembrall. - 14/07/2010 08:57:10 PM 1466 Views
I felt bad for Neville. - 14/07/2010 09:03:49 PM 1514 Views
Indeed. - 14/07/2010 09:05:40 PM 1384 Views
But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten! - 15/07/2010 02:51:47 AM 1637 Views
I know, right! - 15/07/2010 06:41:01 AM 1356 Views
Exactly. - 15/07/2010 03:22:18 PM 1282 Views
Re: But it doesn't tell you what you've forgotten! - 15/07/2010 08:15:55 AM 1354 Views
Ah, see - 15/07/2010 03:23:49 PM 1343 Views
Chapters 11-17: Harry the Hero *NM* - 12/07/2010 08:30:29 AM 807 Views
What'd you think of the ending? *NM* - 15/07/2010 05:21:38 PM 775 Views
Loved it. - 15/07/2010 05:56:06 PM 1404 Views
Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 07:14:08 PM 1404 Views
I hear you - 15/07/2010 08:22:05 PM 1427 Views
Re: Two separate things: - 15/07/2010 08:48:21 PM 1423 Views
I can clarify some stuff for you - 15/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 1444 Views
One of the most sublime, wonderful moments of any book - 15/07/2010 08:18:29 PM 1280 Views
Yes! - 15/07/2010 10:39:11 PM 1463 Views
Lovely - 15/07/2010 09:00:11 PM 1488 Views
Haha - 15/07/2010 09:16:16 PM 1574 Views
Re: Haha - 15/07/2010 09:24:06 PM 1466 Views
But I thought all girls were made of sugar and spice and everything nice? - 15/07/2010 09:26:53 PM 1368 Views
Oh, we are. - 15/07/2010 09:35:17 PM 1274 Views
Ah like vodka vs. wine coolers? *NM* - 15/07/2010 09:48:26 PM 772 Views
Gin - 15/07/2010 09:49:33 PM 1401 Views
I was 16. - 15/07/2010 10:49:33 PM 1273 Views
So was I - 15/07/2010 10:54:24 PM 1318 Views
Honestly, dumbledore is a bit of an ass... - 15/07/2010 10:48:32 PM 1273 Views
Heresy! - 15/07/2010 10:55:28 PM 1325 Views
As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 03:05:05 AM 1584 Views
Re: As I indicated below, I had some issues. - 16/07/2010 11:14:56 AM 1474 Views
In fairness, it's Hogwarts itself that is all but impregnable. - 26/07/2010 03:55:02 PM 1390 Views
A funny thing I noticed - 15/07/2010 09:00:42 PM 1493 Views
- 15/07/2010 09:18:08 PM 1349 Views
Overall thoughts for the book - 12/07/2010 08:31:37 AM 1438 Views
Foreshadowing and setting up the future - 12/07/2010 08:32:10 AM 1359 Views
Harry's anger management issues? - 12/07/2010 07:14:58 PM 1431 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:40:40 PM 1476 Views
Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:14:20 PM 1530 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 12/07/2010 09:55:32 PM 1440 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:02:59 PM 1374 Views
Re: Nah, not deliberate. - 13/07/2010 03:04:42 PM 1501 Views
I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:22:54 PM 1552 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:39:25 PM 1487 Views
Re: I noticed a lot of this. - 12/07/2010 07:45:32 PM 1472 Views
~smug~ - 13/07/2010 02:09:15 PM 1444 Views
Indeed. - 13/07/2010 02:10:41 PM 1683 Views
This response implies the experience of being both?? - 13/07/2010 03:23:29 PM 1416 Views
On Ginny: - 12/07/2010 10:36:47 PM 1497 Views
So much (chapters 1-3) *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:35:57 PM 1648 Views
Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:38:05 PM 1468 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:08 PM 1540 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:39:53 PM 1354 Views
Re: Hm. - 12/07/2010 07:44:16 PM 1253 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 04:41:12 AM 1367 Views
Re: Hm. - 13/07/2010 08:55:09 AM 1324 Views
I missed the school roof thing this time around too! Good catch there. *NM* - 12/07/2010 09:22:21 PM 791 Views
The thing that tipped me off - 12/07/2010 09:53:01 PM 1429 Views
Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 09:18:35 PM 1624 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:30:23 PM 1426 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 10:55:01 PM 1391 Views
Re: Some stuff (chapters 4-11) - 14/07/2010 11:05:59 PM 1420 Views
I can answer your consistency question! - 15/07/2010 02:35:42 AM 1552 Views
You are a clever cookie. - 15/07/2010 08:14:25 AM 1428 Views
Yes - 15/07/2010 03:30:36 PM 1282 Views
Ooh, yes. - 16/07/2010 12:19:13 AM 1255 Views
More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 08:55:34 PM 1305 Views
Re: More stuff (chapters 12-17) - 15/07/2010 09:19:13 PM 1388 Views
Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:23:15 PM 1542 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 04:28:04 PM 1421 Views
Re: Tiny tiny inconsistency (?) in Ch. 12 - 17/07/2010 07:12:39 PM 1673 Views
I like it. Thank you. - 20/07/2010 12:53:37 AM 1588 Views
What made this book (and the rest of the series) such a success? - 12/07/2010 08:33:00 AM 1521 Views
I have no idea *spoilers* - 12/07/2010 07:47:58 PM 1583 Views
I agree... - 12/07/2010 09:19:59 PM 1613 Views
It has tons of things in it that every kid dreams of doing - 14/07/2010 01:56:05 PM 1532 Views
Kid? - 14/07/2010 02:01:30 PM 1548 Views
so do I. I was just trying to act mature *NM* - 14/07/2010 02:08:01 PM 981 Views
Not even just the super stuff Deadsy mentions. - 14/07/2010 04:38:46 PM 1656 Views
It's a simple, well-done little book. - 12/07/2010 07:46:48 PM 1530 Views
you don't read instructions, do you? - 12/07/2010 07:49:24 PM 1561 Views
Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:50:23 PM 1515 Views
Re: Heh. - 12/07/2010 07:51:40 PM 1521 Views
Awwww! - 12/07/2010 07:52:19 PM 1411 Views
- 12/07/2010 07:52:52 PM 1538 Views
Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:50:44 PM 1550 Views
Re: Wha? - 12/07/2010 07:52:21 PM 1557 Views
Pff. - 12/07/2010 07:54:54 PM 1540 Views
*NM* - 12/07/2010 07:56:03 PM 985 Views
When did you pick up this book? - 12/07/2010 11:30:46 PM 1456 Views
I was 10. - 13/07/2010 04:13:44 AM 1610 Views
I was 16. - 13/07/2010 08:24:02 AM 1532 Views
1999 - 13/07/2010 09:03:03 AM 1530 Views
What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:15:40 PM 1633 Views
Re: What do you mean by adult version? - 13/07/2010 02:17:40 PM 1511 Views
Just before the first movie came out - 13/07/2010 02:17:42 PM 1677 Views
When Prisoner of Azkaban was a hardback. - 13/07/2010 02:23:57 PM 1527 Views
Just after Goblet of Fire was published. - 13/07/2010 11:50:38 PM 1590 Views
Just before Goblet of Fire came out. - 14/07/2010 04:04:21 AM 1560 Views
The first five were out, waited for HBP. - 14/07/2010 06:20:39 AM 1654 Views
You're making me want to talk about toadface - 14/07/2010 02:06:25 PM 1583 Views
Sorry! - 15/07/2010 06:36:11 AM 1602 Views
I held out quite awhile because I don't like "fads" - 14/07/2010 02:04:37 PM 1503 Views
Lol! - 14/07/2010 08:54:47 PM 1610 Views
I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 06:39:16 AM 1595 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 10:01:04 AM 1781 Views
Re: I did the same thing. - 15/07/2010 05:44:28 PM 1652 Views
I would have, if I had known there was hype. I know I would have. - 15/07/2010 03:28:50 PM 1619 Views
- 15/07/2010 05:47:01 PM 1676 Views
I think I was first! - 23/07/2010 07:05:08 PM 1618 Views
Aged 13 or 14 - a while before the first movie (which was Christmas 2001). *NM* - 26/07/2010 04:13:55 PM 953 Views
Jesus Christ. - 26/07/2010 05:04:46 PM 1627 Views
^That was me. *NM* - 26/07/2010 09:55:49 PM 946 Views
I was going to ask if it was. *NM* - 26/07/2010 10:04:59 PM 932 Views
Suggestions for the Re-read - 12/07/2010 08:33:25 AM 1559 Views
I like it so far - 13/07/2010 10:16:49 AM 1563 Views
I can try that for the next book. - 13/07/2010 11:21:01 PM 1547 Views
Can we get chapter discussions everyday? *NM* - 15/07/2010 06:40:30 PM 921 Views
Inconsistencies Re: the Potter's death... - 15/07/2010 05:16:45 AM 1883 Views
Because they were tricked? They considered Peter and Sirius to be brothers. - 15/07/2010 07:05:27 AM 1537 Views
That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 01:08:40 AM 1453 Views
Take it up with Rowling, since you don't believe me. *NM* - 16/07/2010 08:19:58 AM 868 Views
What's there to believe? - 18/07/2010 06:03:13 AM 1550 Views
Re: That's nonsense.. - 16/07/2010 09:37:59 AM 1670 Views
Also - 16/07/2010 11:17:51 AM 1896 Views
You are correct! There is no inconsistency - 17/07/2010 04:17:35 AM 1581 Views
Huh? - 18/07/2010 05:57:58 AM 1470 Views
But Camilla explained it! - 18/07/2010 09:27:55 AM 1781 Views
Correction - 18/07/2010 10:58:59 AM 1572 Views
I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:42:18 PM 1480 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 05:51:36 PM 1497 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:17:04 PM 1800 Views
Re: I'm fairly certain you guys have that totally wrong... - 18/07/2010 06:28:27 PM 1496 Views
That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:17:14 PM 1567 Views
Re: That bothers me too. - 18/07/2010 07:20:44 PM 1413 Views
Yet... - 18/07/2010 07:47:56 PM 1486 Views
Re: Yet... - 18/07/2010 08:02:31 PM 1541 Views
To quote Dumbledore... - 19/07/2010 05:57:23 AM 1440 Views
Again... - 18/07/2010 07:35:10 PM 1726 Views
Re: Again... - 18/07/2010 08:00:55 PM 1520 Views
Re: Again... - 19/07/2010 06:33:13 AM 1717 Views
Re: Again... - 20/07/2010 04:45:16 PM 1527 Views
Yet another load of bosh. - 21/07/2010 01:00:14 AM 1520 Views
Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 06:48:45 AM 1614 Views
Re: Then let's leave it. - 21/07/2010 04:19:35 PM 1538 Views
My two cents - 19/07/2010 06:11:30 AM 1588 Views
It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 12:11:20 AM 1968 Views
Re: It was just the sort of things these two daredevils would do... - 14/09/2010 09:20:46 AM 1425 Views
You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 04:23:31 PM 1511 Views
Re: You have to wonder if that's actually true. - 26/07/2010 05:06:43 PM 1610 Views
I don't know that I'd call it "see through Pettigrew"... - 26/07/2010 06:22:19 PM 1524 Views
^That was me, too. Oh, dear. - 26/07/2010 09:56:43 PM 1702 Views
Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 18/07/2010 07:14:21 PM 1476 Views
Re: Since Lily and James were unable to leave the house - 26/07/2010 05:07:48 PM 1815 Views
^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 09:58:07 PM 1538 Views
Re: ^ And this, too, was me. - 26/07/2010 10:05:41 PM 1468 Views
- 26/07/2010 10:07:36 PM 1349 Views

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