Re: It's the things behind the scenes setting up the big plan (spoilers for this and later books)
Camilla Send a noteboard - 16/08/2010 12:36:30 PM
True. It is odd. Since the pattern, focusing through Harry, is so ingrained in the series, and in the whole structure of the series: we know what Harry knows, which is why we are so often wrong in our assumptions (well, I am, anyway). Deviating from that pattern is a strange choice to make.
It's necessary to build up tension and show some things that would otherwise require contrived methods to show, I guess. If you just leave this chapter out of book four, and explain it all at the end, you'd have to be far more limited with the explanation and leave out some of the good things in this chapter: the social commentary, the Peter characterization, and the like. And you wouldn't have that nagging voice in your head telling you there's more to fear than just the Tri-Wizard Tournament tests. It's similar in the other cases. I think these chapters improve the books they're in and the series as a whole, honestly.
Oh, I agree. The book would have to be substantially re-written without these scenes. And I suspect that is why I am not such a great fan of them in principle (although I greatly enjoy reading them) -- they are an easier way of doing something, which means it would be more impressive if she could have done the same thing while keeping to her pattern. It is all me being grumpy. I just feel that the focalising through Harry is such an ingrained part of the Harry Potter universe, and it is the main excuse for not giving things away to the reader. Therefore, when she breaks the pattern, it is very obviously because she has not managed to hold it.
Ah, yes. Again, this isn't really terribly strong plotting. A sequence is planned, then disturbed, then returned to status quo so that the plan can go ahead. It is a little disappointing after the strong plotting of the third book. This whole book feels rather more unfocused (as I remember it) than the third. It is more a series of plot cupons than a coherent plot -- even though there is a plot in the background of course.
I don't know, it works great in terms of misleading the reader. We obviously think that the events at the World Cup will prove hugely significant once we figure out what happened - if a reader is particularly attentive and trying to figure out what Voldemort's up to, he must assume the plan has changed since the first chapter. In the meantime, ultimately far more important events like the Moody garbage bins incident are slipped in in far more subtle ways. But then in the end the World Cup proves important only for Hermione's house elves thing, and for the Bagman thing.
Yes, but again, the misleading the reader is somewhat cheapened by the plot not being coherent. It is really just down to Aristotle -- a plot not driven by necessity, but by a series of events, is not an optimal plot. I prefer plots to be surprising by very well integrated if plotting is going to be a point (as it is in Harry Potter). But I must stress that I say this based on how I remember this book. It'll be interesting to see if I still think so after reading it closely again.
This book simply has more balls to juggle than PoA, so to speak, and Rowling does so quite competently, I think, throwing red herrings around along with real hints, and setting up or further developing tons of characters and plotlines for later books while keeping this book strong in its own right. Okay, Voldemort's original evil plan is of a remarkable simplicity, but so what? The book has enough complexity with everything else that it doesn't really matter.
She does it competently, true. And she has made her own job more difficult in this book, definitely.
Well, it is not too large a leap of faith
I guess not, but I'm having fun in this reread with trying to put myself in the head of characters for whom Rowling does not spell everything out in detail - Snape last time, Peter now. And for Peter, it still has to grate.
Indeed. I tend to do the same. When I was younger I would always root for the villain in superhero films and the like. It is always nice to be able to trace motivation and reactions.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
The Great Harry Potter Re-read: Book Four Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
16/08/2010 09:28:48 AM
- 3901 Views
Chapters 1-3: A different beginning
16/08/2010 09:30:26 AM
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Early characters
16/08/2010 09:32:12 AM
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Re: Early characters
16/08/2010 11:02:23 AM
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Early plotting.
16/08/2010 09:32:52 AM
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Re: Early plotting.
16/08/2010 11:02:09 AM
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It's the things behind the scenes setting up the big plan (spoilers for this and later books)
16/08/2010 11:38:14 AM
- 1845 Views
Re: It's the things behind the scenes setting up the big plan (spoilers for this and later books)
16/08/2010 11:47:16 AM
- 1851 Views
Re: It's the things behind the scenes setting up the big plan (spoilers for this and later books)
16/08/2010 12:16:16 PM
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Re: It's the things behind the scenes setting up the big plan (spoilers for this and later books)
16/08/2010 12:36:30 PM
- 1745 Views
Re: Early plotting.
17/08/2010 01:15:43 AM
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Any other comments/observations
16/08/2010 09:33:34 AM
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Mob mentality and British euroscepticism.
16/08/2010 10:37:10 AM
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people in groups and baffling violence. And the godawful recaps
16/08/2010 11:03:09 AM
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Yeah, I agree about the recaps, they're pointless at this point. *NM*
16/08/2010 11:17:37 AM
- 1000 Views
Good news! HP really caught on after this book and so the last books don't have a recap! *NM*
16/08/2010 03:27:24 PM
- 972 Views
Chapters 4-6 - The Weasleys
16/08/2010 09:33:57 AM
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Characters - a few new ones
17/08/2010 08:22:33 AM
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Re: Characters - a few new ones
17/08/2010 11:07:43 AM
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Re: Characters - a few new ones
17/08/2010 12:18:30 PM
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Re: Characters - a few new ones
17/08/2010 12:24:41 PM
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Also on the topic of Amos' talk of Cedric and Harry... (spoilers for end of book)
17/08/2010 12:44:19 PM
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Re: Also on the topic of Amos' talk of Cedric and Harry... (spoilers for end of book)
17/08/2010 12:47:29 PM
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Oh, I can think of a few more things that will prove relevant. But that's for tomorrow. *NM*
17/08/2010 12:51:50 PM
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And arguably another one of those fun names with a hidden meaning...
17/08/2010 07:47:43 PM
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Plotting - anything of note?
17/08/2010 08:23:53 AM
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Re: Plotting - anything of note?
17/08/2010 11:10:22 AM
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The Lovegoods? This is why reading in translation can be annoying...
17/08/2010 12:29:50 PM
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Re: The Lovegoods? This is why reading in translation can be annoying...
17/08/2010 12:38:09 PM
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I thought that might be it. Yeah, different names in the Dutch translation then. *NM*
17/08/2010 12:40:45 PM
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Any other comments/observations.
17/08/2010 08:24:20 AM
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Chapters 7-9 - The Quidditch World Cup and Death Eaters
16/08/2010 09:34:26 AM
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Characters: Ministers, Mothers, other important people.
18/08/2010 12:44:16 AM
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Plotting
18/08/2010 12:44:48 AM
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Other stuff.
18/08/2010 12:45:13 AM
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Krum Catching the Snitch
18/08/2010 02:28:58 AM
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It makes a certain amount of sense, I think...
18/08/2010 01:23:46 PM
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Clothes and other schools
18/08/2010 09:44:02 AM
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There's a first mention of Beauxbatons in chapter nine.
18/08/2010 01:37:14 PM
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Re: There's a first mention of Beauxbatons in chapter nine.
18/08/2010 01:45:58 PM
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Chapters 10-12: Back to Hogwarts and the Tri-Wizard Tournament. *NM*
16/08/2010 09:34:48 AM
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Characters: introducing Rita Skeeter and Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody. *NM*
19/08/2010 11:21:29 AM
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Re: Characters: introducing Rita Skeeter and Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody.
19/08/2010 05:23:11 PM
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Any other comments, observations or revelations? *NM*
19/08/2010 11:23:48 AM
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There was that Durmstrang reference I was waiting for.
19/08/2010 04:23:16 PM
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Re: There was that Durmstrang reference I was waiting for.
19/08/2010 05:41:04 PM
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Chapters 13-15: First lessons, and the arrival of the foreign guests *NM*
16/08/2010 09:35:09 AM
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Characters: The Trio, Neville, Moody, first impressions of Karkarov and Maxime *NM*
20/08/2010 11:49:04 AM
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Hagrid, Rita, Moody, Neville, Harry, Hedwig, Cedric, McGonnagall, Hermione and Madamme Maxime
20/08/2010 12:59:41 PM
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Re: Hagrid, Rita, Moody, Neville, Harry, Hedwig, Cedric, McGonnagall, Hermione and Madamme Maxime
20/08/2010 02:10:03 PM
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Re: Hagrid, Rita, Moody, Neville, Harry, Hedwig, Cedric, McGonnagall, Hermione and Madamme Maxime
20/08/2010 02:20:22 PM
- 1893 Views
Re: Hagrid, Rita, Moody, Neville, Harry, Hedwig, Cedric, McGonnagall, Hermione and Madamme Maxime
20/08/2010 02:33:04 PM
- 1705 Views
Re: Hagrid, Rita, Moody, Neville, Harry, Hedwig, Cedric, McGonnagall, Hermione and Madamme Maxime
20/08/2010 02:36:50 PM
- 1679 Views
Plotting and writing. *NM*
20/08/2010 11:51:43 AM
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Plotplotplot (plot makes a funny noise if you say it like that).
20/08/2010 01:04:01 PM
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Re: Plotplotplot (plot makes a funny noise if you say it like that).
20/08/2010 01:55:29 PM
- 1866 Views
Re: Plotplotplot (plot makes a funny noise if you say it like that).
20/08/2010 02:04:07 PM
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Anything else to add? *NM*
20/08/2010 11:52:05 AM
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Yes. Five things, actually. Magic, Snape, idiocy, apparating while presumed guilty aaand evil films.
20/08/2010 01:05:06 PM
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Trelawney, or how one can be a Seer and not even know it.
20/08/2010 01:46:09 PM
- 1754 Views
Chapters 16-18: The Tri-Wizard Tournament begins *NM*
16/08/2010 09:35:31 AM
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Characters: The Champions, Hagrid, Karkarov, and of course Rita Skeeter in person *NM*
21/08/2010 01:10:53 PM
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Karkaroff, Moody, Fleur, Krum, Ron, Hermione, Snape and Rita
21/08/2010 01:50:12 PM
- 1746 Views
Re: Karkaroff, Moody, Fleur, Krum, Ron, Hermione, Snape and Rita
21/08/2010 04:24:02 PM
- 1723 Views
Re: Karkaroff, Moody, Fleur, Krum, Ron, Hermione, Snape and Rita
21/08/2010 04:40:39 PM
- 1694 Views
Re: Karkaroff, Moody, Fleur, Krum, Ron, Hermione, Snape and Rita
21/08/2010 05:06:43 PM
- 1974 Views
Re: Karkaroff, Moody, Fleur, Krum, Ron, Hermione, Snape and Rita
21/08/2010 05:10:53 PM
- 1726 Views
Oh, you're right, it is then. I thought you meant she said it to Harry.
21/08/2010 05:31:49 PM
- 1876 Views
Re: Oh, you're right, it is then. I thought you meant she said it to Harry.
21/08/2010 05:41:44 PM
- 1799 Views
The teeth comment was by far the best Snape one liner in the series.
23/08/2010 09:20:18 PM
- 1688 Views
Re: The teeth comment was by far the best Snape one liner in the series.
23/08/2010 09:22:26 PM
- 1874 Views
Definitely true
23/08/2010 10:02:46 PM
- 1942 Views
Re: Definitely true
24/08/2010 06:20:53 PM
- 1993 Views
Plotting and writing.
21/08/2010 01:12:24 PM
- 1993 Views
plotting both for the book alone and the series as a whole
21/08/2010 01:39:10 PM
- 1742 Views
Other comments, small details you noticed,...? *NM*
21/08/2010 01:12:53 PM
- 930 Views
House-elves, Hufflepuff and minds in gutter.
21/08/2010 01:35:38 PM
- 2020 Views
Re: House-elves, Hufflepuff and minds in gutter.
21/08/2010 04:55:10 PM
- 1840 Views
Re: House-elves, Hufflepuff and minds in gutter.
21/08/2010 04:59:55 PM
- 1941 Views
I love the bouillabaisse thing.
21/08/2010 05:02:47 PM
- 1916 Views
Re: I love the bouillabaisse thing.
21/08/2010 05:08:40 PM
- 1959 Views
I associate blancmange more with Britain than with anywhere else...
21/08/2010 05:26:17 PM
- 1797 Views
Re: I love the bouillabaisse thing.
21/08/2010 05:12:54 PM
- 1665 Views
No, no, the pudding and the bouillabaisse are two different things.
21/08/2010 05:24:50 PM
- 1631 Views
Re: No, no, the pudding and the bouillabaisse are two different things.
21/08/2010 05:39:06 PM
- 2011 Views
Hermione really comes into her own in this book.
27/08/2010 11:30:38 PM
- 1579 Views
Agreed, but spending really all her time with those two boys does make it easier...
27/08/2010 11:36:20 PM
- 1721 Views
Re: Agreed, but spending really all her time with those two boys does make it easier...
27/08/2010 11:48:19 PM
- 1761 Views
Chapters 19-21: The first task and House-Elves at Hogwarts *NM*
16/08/2010 09:35:53 AM
- 930 Views
Characters: The Trio, the Champions, Moody, Dobby and Winky,...
23/08/2010 10:40:21 AM
- 1713 Views
The trio, Neville and the House-elves.
23/08/2010 11:07:50 AM
- 1710 Views
Re: The trio, Neville and the House-elves.
23/08/2010 11:35:56 AM
- 1807 Views
Re: The trio, Neville and the House-elves.
23/08/2010 11:44:08 AM
- 1992 Views
Ron and Harry, Winky, various other thoughts.
23/08/2010 11:19:21 AM
- 1637 Views
Re: Ron and Harry, Winky, various other thoughts.
23/08/2010 11:56:37 AM
- 1795 Views
Plotting and writing: the first task and other events *NM*
23/08/2010 10:41:20 AM
- 940 Views
Good plotting in this section
23/08/2010 11:08:50 AM
- 1799 Views
Anything else you want to comment on? *NM*
23/08/2010 10:41:39 AM
- 900 Views
I love that there is a book called Men Who Love Dragons Too Much. *NM*
23/08/2010 11:09:15 AM
- 831 Views
Chapters 22-24: The - rather eventful - Yule Ball *NM*
16/08/2010 09:36:30 AM
- 815 Views
Characters: The Trio, Champions and their dates, Karkarov, Hagrid and Olympe,...
24/08/2010 11:09:33 AM
- 1902 Views
Ron and Hermione, mainly.
24/08/2010 11:47:49 AM
- 1969 Views
Makes sense.
24/08/2010 01:15:37 PM
- 1696 Views
Re: Makes sense.
24/08/2010 03:53:20 PM
- 1689 Views
Re: Makes sense.
24/08/2010 05:00:59 PM
- 1790 Views
Plotting and writing: a bit of a lull in the tension, perhaps, but there's still a lot going on. *NM*
24/08/2010 11:11:49 AM
- 991 Views
Yule Ball, preparation and aftermath
24/08/2010 11:48:30 AM
- 1883 Views
Re: Yule Ball, preparation and aftermath
24/08/2010 02:18:04 PM
- 1700 Views
Whatever else you want to say about these three chapters. *NM*
24/08/2010 11:12:33 AM
- 987 Views
Gender roles, Dobby, national stereotypes, creepy magic and gobbledegook.
24/08/2010 11:49:16 AM
- 1871 Views
Re: Gender roles, Dobby, national stereotypes, creepy magic and gobbledegook.
24/08/2010 02:27:51 PM
- 1753 Views
Re: Gender roles, Dobby, national stereotypes, creepy magic and gobbledegook.
24/08/2010 04:15:15 PM
- 1821 Views
Ron's lasso comment is brilliant. Absolute genius.
24/08/2010 02:23:37 PM
- 1757 Views
Lasso comment?
24/08/2010 04:20:35 PM
- 1765 Views
When discussing methods to separate girls from their gang.
24/08/2010 04:27:47 PM
- 1765 Views
Ah. Hehe. Yes.
24/08/2010 04:30:34 PM
- 1849 Views
It's not really a humourous pun, just a nice find by the translator.
24/08/2010 04:45:34 PM
- 1913 Views
Re: It's not really a humourous pun, just a nice find by the translator.
24/08/2010 04:48:50 PM
- 1792 Views
Holy crap.
25/08/2010 02:44:57 PM
- 1712 Views
Yeah, I don't know if the Google pictures are entirely representative...
25/08/2010 03:06:25 PM
- 1849 Views
Chapters 25-27: The second task and Padfoot's return
16/08/2010 09:36:55 AM
- 1745 Views
Characters: The Trio, Krum, Fleur, Sirius,... *NM*
25/08/2010 11:18:49 AM
- 883 Views
Snape, Percy, Hermione, Ron, Mrs Weasley and Sirius.
25/08/2010 05:31:18 PM
- 1673 Views
I'm a bit worried about people's reactions to Snape during these discussions
25/08/2010 05:41:43 PM
- 1908 Views
Re: I'm a bit worried about people's reactions to Snape during these discussions
25/08/2010 05:45:30 PM
- 1701 Views
Agreed. Snape is one of the most fascinating characters I have ever read
25/08/2010 05:57:12 PM
- 1778 Views
Fleur shows that, when push comes to shove, she has her priorities straight.
26/08/2010 10:54:11 AM
- 1606 Views
Re: Fleur shows that, when push comes to shove, she has her priorities straight.
26/08/2010 11:21:59 AM
- 1728 Views
Plotting and writing: clues, red herrings and recapitulation *NM*
25/08/2010 11:19:47 AM
- 925 Views
Merpeople and the second task.
25/08/2010 11:34:40 AM
- 1790 Views
And something else I never understood about the second task
25/08/2010 02:32:51 PM
- 1788 Views
That's a good point, yeah...
25/08/2010 03:07:30 PM
- 1677 Views
Maybe they should have had a magical big screen projection of what was going on in the lake lol
25/08/2010 03:57:48 PM
- 1732 Views
Lots of stuff -- I may have to change my opinion of Rowling's plotting in this book.
25/08/2010 05:23:30 PM
- 1737 Views
Re: Lots of stuff -- I may have to change my opinion of Rowling's plotting in this book.
25/08/2010 05:40:39 PM
- 1784 Views
Re: Lots of stuff -- I may have to change my opinion of Rowling's plotting in this book.
25/08/2010 05:42:52 PM
- 1681 Views
Re: Lots of stuff -- I may have to change my opinion of Rowling's plotting in this book.
26/08/2010 11:09:20 AM
- 1693 Views
Re: Lots of stuff -- I may have to change my opinion of Rowling's plotting in this book.
26/08/2010 11:17:36 AM
- 1842 Views
Marauder's Map.
05/09/2010 05:27:17 AM
- 1733 Views
Other comments. *NM*
25/08/2010 11:20:11 AM
- 906 Views
Two completely unrelated things.
25/08/2010 05:24:26 PM
- 1797 Views
Re: Two completely unrelated things.
25/08/2010 05:36:29 PM
- 1752 Views
Re: Two completely unrelated things.
25/08/2010 05:42:20 PM
- 1886 Views
Chapters 28-30: Moving towards the climax *NM*
16/08/2010 09:37:22 AM
- 857 Views
Characters: The Trio, Krum, Karkarov, the Crouch family,... *NM*
26/08/2010 12:15:59 PM
- 946 Views
Madame Maxime, Crouch, Snape, Twins, Fudge and Neville
26/08/2010 02:48:04 PM
- 1754 Views
Plotting and writing: increasing signs of danger, and revelations about the past. *NM*
26/08/2010 12:16:50 PM
- 908 Views
Some good plotting here, and some recurring issues.
26/08/2010 02:50:29 PM
- 1764 Views
Re: Some good plotting here, and some recurring issues.
26/08/2010 03:38:53 PM
- 1967 Views
Re: Some good plotting here, and some recurring issues.
26/08/2010 03:51:32 PM
- 1798 Views
Chapters 31-33: The third task
16/08/2010 09:38:01 AM
- 1692 Views
Characters: The Trio, the Champions, Voldemort, Wormtail,,... *NM*
27/08/2010 01:32:11 PM
- 951 Views
Ron, Mrs Weasley, Madame Maxime, Wormtail, Voldemort, Quirrel
27/08/2010 03:50:03 PM
- 1657 Views
Re: Ron, Mrs Weasley, Madame Maxime, Wormtail, Voldemort, Quirrel
27/08/2010 05:09:48 PM
- 1640 Views
Re: Ron, Mrs Weasley, Madame Maxime, Wormtail, Voldemort, Quirrel
27/08/2010 05:23:14 PM
- 1712 Views
Plotting and writing: thrilling action, but also a fair bit of infodump/flashback. *NM*
27/08/2010 01:34:13 PM
- 915 Views
Stuff happens.
27/08/2010 03:50:33 PM
- 1697 Views
Riddle Family.
05/09/2010 05:39:29 AM
- 1708 Views
Anything else to add? *NM*
27/08/2010 01:34:39 PM
- 898 Views
Chapters 34-37: The climax and the aftermath *NM*
16/08/2010 09:38:22 AM
- 895 Views
Characters: Well, pretty much all of them, I guess. *NM*
28/08/2010 11:04:41 AM
- 911 Views
Voldemort, Harry, Dumbledore, Snape, Ron and Hermione
28/08/2010 11:57:25 AM
- 1777 Views
Plotting and writing: tying up, explanations and setting up the future books. *NM*
28/08/2010 11:05:33 AM
- 896 Views
Revelations and then some
28/08/2010 12:02:36 PM
- 1729 Views
Any other thoughts? *NM*
28/08/2010 11:06:03 AM
- 929 Views
Two questions and one other thing.
28/08/2010 12:03:14 PM
- 1842 Views
The book as a whole: overall thoughts, comments and obversations
16/08/2010 09:39:24 AM
- 1759 Views
What do/did you think of Rowling's writing in this book?
16/08/2010 09:40:03 AM
- 1776 Views
I think she has more room to display her talent in this book.
28/08/2010 11:27:20 AM
- 1841 Views
Suggestions for the re-read.
16/08/2010 09:41:01 AM
- 1902 Views
Is it possible / easy to make the post an Announcement while it's ongoing?
17/08/2010 03:08:31 PM
- 1738 Views
When should we start the next book? And at which pace?
28/08/2010 11:09:07 AM
- 2003 Views
Re: When should we start the next book? And at which pace?
28/08/2010 12:05:31 PM
- 1982 Views