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Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM
When one uses ??? to introduce indirect discourse, the subject of the indirect statement is nominative, but it's accusative when one uses an infinitive.
"We feel safe when we read what we recognise, what does not challenge our way of thinking.... a steady acceptance of pre-arranged patterns leads to the inability to question what we are told."
~Camilla

Ghavrel is Ghavrel is Ghavrel

*MySmiley*

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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1112 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing snoopcester - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 305 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. Tom - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 278 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here snoopcester - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 275 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 296 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 319 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* Tom - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 155 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 256 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens LadyLorraine - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 399 Views
THEY ARE VICIOUS CREATURES FROM THE DEEP. CUTTLEFISH HAVE W SHAPED PUPILS. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:00:41 AM 256 Views
Actually nothing like that Sareitha Sedai - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 252 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 265 Views
As a Classicist I'm afraid I can't get past the misguided origins. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 10:08:34 PM 251 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 307 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 257 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 290 Views
*NM* Avendesora - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 133 Views
you know, considering my state was THE lowest in the country for education... LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 05:04:42 PM 306 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* Monkey - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 239 Views
*cough* move along... ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 292 Views
That annoys me, too Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 433 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 253 Views
No Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 253 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 491 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 502 Views
Er, no... Tim - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 246 Views
Re: Er, no... Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 271 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 241 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 245 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 293 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 477 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? Tim - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 267 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 277 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 236 Views
Sorted Camilla - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 477 Views
Coffee time is going to be appropriated by grammar discussion? Shall I bring a book? *NM* Rebekah - 21/05/2010 10:12:48 AM 238 Views
Not entirely. We just need to get a hold of Pratchett's Unseen Academicals on the way. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:25:57 AM 242 Views
This whole thread is just an elaborate effort to provoke my complaints about terminal prepositions. Joel - 21/05/2010 02:58:05 PM 397 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 313 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 370 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 301 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. jh - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 509 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. Beqi - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 303 Views
It's the same as "I" vs. "me". "Who" can only be a subject. "Whom" is correct everywhere else. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:47:21 PM 496 Views
That's where I get into trouble. Joel - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM 464 Views
Along these lines Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 469 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. LiterateDog - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 286 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 292 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 240 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 279 Views
Not limited to the US of A. Rebekah - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 463 Views
It's properly the "US and A" - if Borat taught me nothing else, it's that. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:46:18 PM 266 Views
If you're going to start down that path... Legolas - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 282 Views
Personally Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 230 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 267 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... Legolas - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 471 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 532 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 379 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 459 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 253 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 117 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. Tim - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 261 Views
<chant> Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 250 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 237 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 432 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 123 Views
Example please? *NM* Tim - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 254 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 264 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. Tim - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 467 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 22/05/2010 11:40:05 PM 359 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 23/05/2010 10:30:59 AM 279 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM 372 Views
Why = what for? That's amazing! *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:22:35 PM 128 Views
Cf pretty much every other European language, no? Legolas - 23/05/2010 09:32:33 PM 247 Views
Yes, but when you're a native speaker of English it comes as something of a surprise. Tim - 23/05/2010 11:18:45 PM 243 Views
The thing is that you really have to know Old English to figure it out. Ghavrel - 24/05/2010 03:22:10 AM 251 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object Larry - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 254 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 242 Views
I know it's odd, but in terse responses, it seems to be a direct object rather than nominative Larry - 21/05/2010 01:46:10 AM 246 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 259 Views
Well... Larry - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 442 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 445 Views
I know that Larry - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 369 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 362 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 258 Views
I know it's dative in Latin Larry - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 449 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 230 Views
And you would be wrong in that. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 256 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 233 Views
You still just aren't getting this. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 237 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 123 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. Tom - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9398 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 114 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 432 Views
True. But English uses the reflexive in that scenario, not the personal pronoun. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:05:30 PM 272 Views
That was atrocious Latin. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 467 Views
I was very drunk, and it wasn't that bad even had I been sober. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:04:12 PM 365 Views
Parare means, first and foremost, to prepare, supply or make something available. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:50:22 AM 366 Views
It also means to buy, and it frequently has that meaning when it's with the dative. No dice. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:31:01 AM 483 Views
Now you're pulling things out of your ass (about parare, at least) Tom - 23/05/2010 02:32:58 AM 240 Views
I unfortunately don't have the OLD, and no, I'm not. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:41:22 AM 275 Views
So I looked up the word in Lewis & Short. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:49:19 AM 241 Views
Interestingly enough, the Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't have one use of the dative for "to buy". Tom - 23/05/2010 02:51:54 PM 452 Views
Hm. I guess I have to concede defeat in this, then. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:21:29 PM 253 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 262 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 118 Views
C'est moi. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 453 Views
One additional thought. everynametaken - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 386 Views
Let me clarify. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 259 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. everynametaken - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 245 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... damookster - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 295 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 113 Views
You clearly had an unusually good teacher. That's exactly what should be taught. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:00:58 PM 256 Views
That is what I was taught... Dominic - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 545 Views
Same. TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 257 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* Gena - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 279 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! Monkey - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 276 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 225 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar Larry - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 375 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. Tom - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 384 Views
True Larry - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 248 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. Tom - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 451 Views
I guess I did Larry - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 512 Views
Those all sound boring. Tom - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 410 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point Larry - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 436 Views
Avendesora - 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 377 Views
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