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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
The gay marriage debate/controversy has always been an issue that has attracted my interest. As a young child, my knee jerk reaction was to relate the plight of gays to the plight of African-americans. This sympathy has, however, waned significantly in recent years. Only recently, have I come to a belief about gay marriage on which I'm quite firm and unmoving (though open to other ideas).

I know many on this site are open, mindful, accepting, and understanding of homosexuals (so perhaps this won't piss off nearly as many people as I hope ;P). And many of you might agree with my opinion on gay marriage. But for those of you who don't, I'd really like to hear how in the world you manage to believe what you do without realizing how glaringly inconsistent, mistaken, and sometimes homophobic you are being.

First, my opinion. I believe that opposition to civil unions between homosexuals is unfounded. I believe that opposition to marriage between homosexuals is unfounded. And I believe that any church or private institution that refuses to marry homosexuals, who are otherwise average citizens, ought to be made by power of law to marry homosexuals.

I recognize those last couple statements may come with some controversy, but hear me out. I promise that I will earnestly hear out any opinions/arguments against my own, as well.

But first, the civil unions argument. 1) Legally, there's no reason to deny homosexuals the right to be civilly united (that sounds awful btw). Certain rights come with being legally joined and homosexuals have every right to exercise those rights if they see fit. Religious definitions of marriage (i.e. that it is strictly between a man and a woman) need not come into play here since civil unions do not involve the church.

Before I move on, a bit more on this point for those who still aren't satisfied. Laws exist to preserve order and prevent anarchy or oppression. Laws with a purpose outside of this are superfluous, unconstitutional, and ought to be thrown out (that is not to say that there are not many laws like this, but the topic of this debate is gay marriage so we'll limit it to that). When laws are put in place without consideration as to how they preserve order and prevent lawlessness and oppression, fascism or anarchy results. For example, a law allowing luxury cars to run red lights would result in a significant amount of damage. Laws however demanding that all cars stop at red lights and stop signs, that we obey speed limits, etc., keep people safe and peaceful.

Prohibiting gay civil unions fulfills none of these categories. Gays will not, upon being legally joined, run through the streets causing damage. They will not negatively effect the ability of others to marry. So prohibition of gay marriage is without grounds.

Now, moving on to my later claims. i) The church defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman under god. ii) The bible also explicitly mentions that homosexuals are "abominations." (you can look that quote up if you want, I promise it's in there, I just can't recall what book, verse or chapter). These "reasons" are what Christians say are grounds for their refusal to acknowledge that gays can love each other eternally under god.

Statement (i) seems to be the most damaging to my points, because it is a definition of marriage. But why do Christians define marriage between a man and a woman? Christians imply that this statement specifies that gays ought not be included. However, that statement does not uphold to even the most basic scrutiny. First, we must recognize that when church doctrine concerning marriage was first established there were likely a significantly less number of homosexuals marrying each other. The context of the era was strictly hetero. The definition of marriage is more an explanation of what occurs rather than a textbook to guide us on future conclusions about marriage. At the VERY least, there is no overt indication int he bible that the definition of marriage provided is meant for us to assess marriage in the future. Even today, the Catholic Church is constantly revising its opinions in an effort to modernize and establish a working context. The era in which marriage was "defined" is nothing like the modern era. To hinge an entire argument on this simple definition, bereft of context and explanation is flimsy to say the least.

Of course, Christians may argue that God need not give explanations. What he says is simply enough. To those of you who say that, I pose the question, "How do you know what God meant by those words?" It is very likely that God was speaking only on society in that era. God certainly never mentioned about online porn. That is why Christianity must grow and reevaluate itself as the world changes. (That was why there were prophets. Every so often, one of them came along to "modernize" the religion with a new word of god, making things more clear and better fit for the area. It's a real shame we haven't had one in so long. I really wonder why that is.)

Now that we can throw out the definition of marriage as a valid argument, let's look at this whole "gays are abominations" sympathy that runs throughout Christianity. The bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin and that gays are abominations. So why let them marry? They are bad people according to the bible. Well, because Christianity is a religion that bases itself on accepting sinners and wrongdoers. Does the Christian church regularly to refuse convicted felons? Wife-beaters? Terrorists? Pedophiles? Or any number of monsters who has been married under Christian tradition? The answer is an emphatic NO. Christianity embraces sinners, accepting them for their humanity and vulnerability. Seeking to help them better themselves, even if they make little real effort themselves. How then, can homosexuality be so above and beyond these other offenses that it would be unreasonable to marry one? If someone can answer that question without referring to the definition of marriage which I've just debunked, then please respond to this post or NB me.

Having analyzed the anti-gay marriage arguments available, I see no qualified reason to deny gays the right to marriage. In fact, refusal to marry someone based on sexual preference is discrimination and the government has grounds to force churches into marrying gays. Church and state might be separate, but that does not make churches a safe haven for law breaking and discrimination is breaking the law.

One cannot refuse to serve someone based on the color of their skin, their country of ancestry, or their favorite color. So why their sexual preference?

The only phenomenon that can explain this is the veiled homophobia that runs rampant in American society. It appalls me to see people so speciously argue against gay marriage.

If anyone can better explain to me the reasoning behind those against gay marriage, please let me know.

And for those Christians out there who are not against gay marriage and to whom this post is not in any way directed at, please do not feel like I'm berating all Christians. I know and care about many Christians, consider them close friends, and respectable people. But on this issue, I cannot understand their beliefs. Only homophobia explains them.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2059 Views
I disagree on the latter part - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1391 Views
I follow your point... - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1384 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1412 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1341 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1209 Views
You didn't read my post. - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1270 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1347 Views
Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1295 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1263 Views
You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1400 Views
Re: You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1252 Views
Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1321 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1145 Views
Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1402 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 668 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 691 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1309 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1307 Views
Also also: - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1290 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1292 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1331 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1214 Views
Also - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1359 Views
And wrong again. - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1379 Views
Not so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1209 Views
Yes, so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1163 Views
Let's be reasonable here - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1268 Views
Why do you get to judge? - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1304 Views
I don't - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1190 Views
OK. - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1297 Views
Re: OK. - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1260 Views
Then please stop. - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1262 Views
What's wrong with discussion? - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1220 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1235 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1270 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1232 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1128 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1247 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1228 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1324 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1191 Views
You are wrong - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1061 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1116 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1222 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1307 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1310 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1218 Views
Gah. - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1169 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 618 Views
What a mature response. - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1379 Views
Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1307 Views
Re: Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1249 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1178 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1254 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1292 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1185 Views
+1 - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1060 Views
Hehe - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1107 Views
Um - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1324 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 615 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 673 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 549 Views
It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1168 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1242 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1331 Views
It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1269 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1251 Views
Nonsense - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1175 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1156 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1267 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1195 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1325 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1301 Views
*NM* - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 446 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1289 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1279 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 617 Views
really? - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1137 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1074 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 582 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1113 Views
Which is interesting - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1092 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1069 Views
Original poster. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 642 Views
- 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1130 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1140 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1042 Views
Ya know?!? - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1157 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1255 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1280 Views
There is a difference... - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1308 Views
No you don't. - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1286 Views
That's another concern - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1343 Views
Not quite my point - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1215 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1353 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1169 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1269 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1097 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1126 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1153 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1163 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1273 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1219 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1322 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1162 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1272 Views
Of course it would - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1353 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 680 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 660 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1226 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 654 Views
Simples - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1242 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1204 Views
So. - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1088 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1600 Views
Agreed *NM* - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 535 Views
I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1036 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1236 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 683 Views
Naturally. - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1229 Views
I know I do *NM* - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 625 Views
Another thing - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1324 Views
A couple of things - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1222 Views
I disagree - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1353 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1305 Views
there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1351 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1240 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1176 Views
One point about Prop. 8 - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1204 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1133 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1221 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1040 Views
there are major flaws in your argument - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1345 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 988 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 575 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 582 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1247 Views
I feel your pain *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 661 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1311 Views
100% agreed. - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1351 Views
This. *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 493 Views
You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1265 Views
By that token - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1147 Views
My God.... - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1216 Views
no You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1145 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1257 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1347 Views
Fair enough. - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1275 Views
Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1204 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1246 Views
So then.... - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1199 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1033 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1338 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1418 Views
+1 - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1360 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1287 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1115 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1288 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 623 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 644 Views
It's not snarky. - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1270 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1518 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1154 Views
*shrug* - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1348 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1134 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1353 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1237 Views
LOL - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1208 Views
Re: LOL - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1146 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1212 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1139 Views
No, marriage started because of property. - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1233 Views
So then two things come to mind... - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1212 Views
Only two? - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1204 Views
Is this the same guy... - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1113 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1185 Views
That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1423 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1255 Views
Oh, I hope not - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1246 Views
I may be wrong - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1232 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1155 Views
True enough - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1433 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1200 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1204 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1194 Views
moot, not mute - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1494 Views
damn - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1295 Views
Actually, I agree with that - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1099 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1098 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1166 Views
Rights.... - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1191 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1204 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1312 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 676 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1334 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 615 Views
Starting again - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1326 Views
Not at all - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1228 Views
Re: Not at all - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1027 Views
Agreed *NM* - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 520 Views
Oh dear - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1127 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 661 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1068 Views
I'm curious - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1184 Views
- 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1078 Views
Okay, good. - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1240 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1280 Views
very nicely said *NM* - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 527 Views

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