As Sareitha points out, I am firmly of the opinion that the State should provide for the marriage of all consenting adults of all orientations.
I am also firmly of the opinion that the State should keep its legislation out of private institutions - homes, churches, clubs, etc - unless what is happening there causes harm to people or their property.
My church will not marry (perform the ceremony for) people who are not members of the church. My church will not marry a Christian to a non-Christian (my husband is an athiest; we got married in the state church of England but I go to a Free Church of Scotland congregation). And my church will not perform weddings for homosexuals. All of those things are based on our reading of the Bible.
BUT: let me reiterate: I believe the State has a duty to provide marriage for all consenting adults of all orientations. Just the State should not force churches to perform those marriages which do not agree with their doctrine.
Is that clear enough for you?
I am also firmly of the opinion that the State should keep its legislation out of private institutions - homes, churches, clubs, etc - unless what is happening there causes harm to people or their property.
My church will not marry (perform the ceremony for) people who are not members of the church. My church will not marry a Christian to a non-Christian (my husband is an athiest; we got married in the state church of England but I go to a Free Church of Scotland congregation). And my church will not perform weddings for homosexuals. All of those things are based on our reading of the Bible.
BUT: let me reiterate: I believe the State has a duty to provide marriage for all consenting adults of all orientations. Just the State should not force churches to perform those marriages which do not agree with their doctrine.
Is that clear enough for you?
Maybe it's because I'm not clear enough. I believe that IN ADDITION to having a secular, state oriented marriage for all consenting adults, private institutions like churches ought not be allowed to ban gay marriage.
It seems like you're not from the US so my points may not apply, but this post was directed at America. There are clear legal grounds for government interfering with private institutions. If there weren't, we'd still have segregation.
My point is that banning gay marriage on a religious level amounts to discrimination because gay marriage does not alter the essence of a religion.
The Supreme Court recently ruled that private institutions are allowed to discriminate on who they allow to be members. The case was about the Boy Scouts kicking out a gay man. The court decided that as a private institution, they have a right based on the right to freedom of association to decide with whom they will associate. They don't want to associate with queer folks, so they don't have to do so.
The same obviously applies to churches.
I don't know the circumstances of that case nor do I know the background. I've heard a lot of supreme court cases misinterpreted on this site and others, so if you don't mind I'd like you to give me the name of that case.
Also, Brown v. Board of Education pretty clearly stated that discrimination of certain brands was not permitted.
Whether or not discrimination is permitted on this level in churches is at question. I believe it is not because gay marriage does nothing to alter the essence of christianity.
Look at the link below. It clearly lays out the fact that the Boy Scout's first amendment right to freedom of association trumped the State's decision to force them to accept an openly homosexual troop leader.
Brown v. BoE limited the discrimination public entities could engage in and did away with the doctrine of separate but equal. It did not have an effect on private entities. Public schools were desegregated. Public pools were desegregated. Public busses and trains had their seats integrated.
Private companies, truly private companies that did not accept any public money, could continue to do as they pleased. And they did.
Whatever your beliefs on the essence of christianity, they don't matter. Each church is a private organization that is free to define themselves. If they accept public money for something, to provide a service, then they must follow public policies in doing so, but as for their membership and the rights and rituals they perform within themselves, the government has no business telling them what to do.
Let's take another example. It is known that smoking cigarettes leads to lung, and other cancers. Many state and local governments have therefore banned smoking tobacco products in public areas for the public's safety. They have not banned smoking in private clubs, where members know that smoking is allowed. They have not banned smoking in private homes, where the owner/renter/individual makes the choice.
Do you see the parallel?
It's also illegal to refuse to seat someone at a restaurant because they're black. It's illegal to only hire men (unless the job requires a man). It's illegal to only accept white kids into a college.
While brown v board did pertain to public facilities. The Civil Rights Act pertained to much more.
My mistake for using Brown v. Board as an example.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
Gay Marriage
12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
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I disagree on the latter part
12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM
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I follow your point...
12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM
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Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously.
12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM
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See, that's what I'm saying...
12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM
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You didn't read my post.
12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM
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Actually, you didn't read my post
12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
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Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
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Re: Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
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Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM
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You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
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Re: You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
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Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
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Re: Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
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Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM
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Re: Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM
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Also
12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM
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And wrong again.
12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
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Not so quick!
12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
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Yes, so quick!
12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM
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Let's be reasonable here
12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
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Why do you get to judge?
12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM
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I don't
12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM
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OK.
12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM
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Re: OK.
12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM
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Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM
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Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM
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Then please stop.
12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
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What's wrong with discussion?
12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM
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Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something.
12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
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What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM
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Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM
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Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM
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Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM
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Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes.
12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM
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Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM
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Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM
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Gah.
12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM
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What a mature response.
12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM
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I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se.
12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM
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Um
12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM
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That's a very good question. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM
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It makes no sense
12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM
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Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM
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Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM
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What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM
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Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM
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Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that!
*NM*
13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
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13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
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Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM*
13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM
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Yes
13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM
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Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off.
12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM
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secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage
12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM
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Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately.
12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM
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And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing.
12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM
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It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me.
12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM
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I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem.
12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
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What in the world would that accomplish?
12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM
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Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently.
12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM
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the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition..
12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM
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heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough*
12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM
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thats OK I am sure you will get over it
12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM
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Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit.
12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM
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Really? I was hoping for something better
12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM
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So government recognition makes your religion meaningful?
12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM
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not my religion I'm agnostic
12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM
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I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM*
12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM
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no but your are European and that slants your views
*NM*
12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
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Simples
12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM
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there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism
12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM
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So.
14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM
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sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad
14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM
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You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny
15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
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Agreed *NM*
12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM
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I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM
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Re: I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM
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A couple of things
12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM
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there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM
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Re: there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM
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I should clarify that I support gay marriage
12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM
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One point about Prop. 8
12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM
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I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong
12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM
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Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it.
12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM
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that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons
12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM
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Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions.
12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM
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there are major flaws in your argument
12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM
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Women can't be priests in the Catholic church.
12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM
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Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional.
12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM
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You are absolutely wrong
12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM
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Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin.
13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM
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Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM
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Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning...
12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM
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Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM*
12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM
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I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM
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+1
12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM
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Stop with the pile on Camilla.
12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM
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You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed"
12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM
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Which speaks highly of you....
12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM
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This is being very petty. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM
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As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM*
12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM
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It's not snarky.
12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM
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Its a +1 shorthand comment...
12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM
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Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations?
12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM
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you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious
12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM
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Ok, so if the state does then...
12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM
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No, marriage started because of property.
12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
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So then two things come to mind...
12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
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Only two?
12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
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That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM
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Re: That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM
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yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights
13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM
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The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back...
13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM
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Actually, I agree with that
12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
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See, what I don't get is why gay people care about
12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM
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It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state.
12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
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I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM*
12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM
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Starting again
12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
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Not at all
12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM
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Re: Not at all
13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM
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Agreed *NM*
13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM
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Oh dear
13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM
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I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft?
12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM
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