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Yes. Rebekah Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM
You are the one who refuses to accept that churches might wrongfully discriminate at all.

Because it's not possible under law. Law leaves private institutions free to do what they will, so long as what they do does not hurt people or their property. I'm not sure why you find that so difficut to accept, since everyone has pointed out to you that it is so, and Americans who know Constitutional matters have given you citations.

The real question here is not what churches ought to believe (frankly, I don't care) but what they ought to be allowed to do. I believe that banning gay marriage is discrimination. I believe this because sins are accepted in other parts of christianity and even embraced as something to be dealt with before god.

What they believe and what they do is inextricably linked. Churches do not do what they don't believe, and nor should they have to. Sins are not accepted. We acknowledge people commit sins, but we require that they try not to. Because we're not perfect, we continue to sin, but then we have to repent and ask for forgiveness.

What churches do you think are happy for people to continue sinning? That's another thing you refuse to answer.

Some, not all, churches do pass out condoms to young people, in the hopes that they will avoid pregnancy out of wedlock. Is this not a form of sanctioning premarital sex? At least, in the same sense that gay marriage would be?

Not all churches think pre-marital sex is wrong. You seem to think that the Christian religion is monolithic. It's very much not.

Some, not all, churches allow divorce. Does this not diminish wedding vows? Which are to be eternal before god. Is this not a form of sanctioning a sin?

Again, those churches that sanction divorce do not consider it to be a sin. Christianity is not monolithic.

If I'm grossly ignoring your points and refusing to listen, please enlighten me. But I would appreciate if you show me how my points are not valid.

I believe I just have.

And, please note that I have been referring to my church in my responses, not all churches. I know what I believe, what my church believes, and what that means we practice. That's what I can talk about. For the rest, I make assumptions. Well-grounded ones, mind you.
*MySmiley*

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1994 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1335 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1324 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1334 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1289 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1155 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1195 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1273 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1233 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1206 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 617 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1338 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1190 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1250 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1086 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1344 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 646 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 664 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1250 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1249 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1232 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1235 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1278 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1159 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1295 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1317 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1155 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1102 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1212 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1245 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1127 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1243 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1197 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1141 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1254 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1209 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1158 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1178 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1203 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1177 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1062 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1190 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1164 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1264 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1136 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 994 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1060 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1165 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1244 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1245 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1161 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1110 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 591 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1314 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1244 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1184 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1113 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1196 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1229 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1125 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 998 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1049 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1263 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 590 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 627 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 522 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1110 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1183 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1276 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1201 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1186 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1124 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1099 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1211 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1138 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1266 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1248 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 426 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1228 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1214 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 588 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1078 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1011 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 555 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1051 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1035 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1015 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 619 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1074 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1083 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 986 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1102 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1196 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1221 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1248 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1227 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1283 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1154 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1287 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1114 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1161 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1167 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1152 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1211 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1047 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1063 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1087 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1101 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1229 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1160 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1248 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1109 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1219 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1292 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 652 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 635 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1176 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 632 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1185 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1150 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1032 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1545 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1366 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 513 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 979 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1175 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 659 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1170 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 595 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1265 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1164 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1304 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1249 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1290 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1180 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1110 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1147 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1074 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1168 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 985 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1149 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1295 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 939 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 550 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 553 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1184 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 641 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1249 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1292 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 475 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1190 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1100 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1155 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1094 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1168 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1121 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1277 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1225 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1144 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1195 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1128 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 984 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1288 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 651 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 615 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1346 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1299 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1221 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1052 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1228 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 599 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 619 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1201 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1454 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1100 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1290 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1082 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1284 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1174 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1150 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1094 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1145 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1072 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1171 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1154 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1147 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1057 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1132 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1341 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1193 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1186 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1164 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1093 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1364 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1144 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1150 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1141 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1433 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1237 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1044 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1033 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1101 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1124 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1137 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1257 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 649 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1273 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 591 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1268 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1170 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 956 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 493 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1067 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 620 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1008 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1129 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1002 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1183 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1218 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 501 Views
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