Active Users:1481 Time:20/08/2025 10:02:55 AM
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM
You are the one who refuses to accept that churches might wrongfully discriminate at all.

Because it's not possible under law. Law leaves private institutions free to do what they will, so long as what they do does not hurt people or their property. I'm not sure why you find that so difficut to accept, since everyone has pointed out to you that it is so, and Americans who know Constitutional matters have given you citations.

The real question here is not what churches ought to believe (frankly, I don't care) but what they ought to be allowed to do. I believe that banning gay marriage is discrimination. I believe this because sins are accepted in other parts of christianity and even embraced as something to be dealt with before god.

What they believe and what they do is inextricably linked. Churches do not do what they don't believe, and nor should they have to. Sins are not accepted. We acknowledge people commit sins, but we require that they try not to. Because we're not perfect, we continue to sin, but then we have to repent and ask for forgiveness.

What churches do you think are happy for people to continue sinning? That's another thing you refuse to answer.

Some, not all, churches do pass out condoms to young people, in the hopes that they will avoid pregnancy out of wedlock. Is this not a form of sanctioning premarital sex? At least, in the same sense that gay marriage would be?

Not all churches think pre-marital sex is wrong. You seem to think that the Christian religion is monolithic. It's very much not.

Some, not all, churches allow divorce. Does this not diminish wedding vows? Which are to be eternal before god. Is this not a form of sanctioning a sin?

Again, those churches that sanction divorce do not consider it to be a sin. Christianity is not monolithic.

If I'm grossly ignoring your points and refusing to listen, please enlighten me. But I would appreciate if you show me how my points are not valid.

I believe I just have.

And, please note that I have been referring to my church in my responses, not all churches. I know what I believe, what my church believes, and what that means we practice. That's what I can talk about. For the rest, I make assumptions. Well-grounded ones, mind you.


OK. First, private institutions cannot do whatever they want. The civil rights act outlines that discrimination based on race, gender, or ethnicity is illegal. Granted, sexual preference is not included there, the supreme court ruled that discrimination in private institutions is only permitted when the expressive message (or as I said, the essence of the church) of the institution is altered.

I understand that christianity is not monolithic, but I know for a fact that many churches claiming to take the bible literally engage in these practices. I can show you articles if you'd like. Not all churches as I said engage in these practices, but some do. And some of those churches do still believe that wedding vows are sacred, and premarital sex is a sin.

The difference is that they acknowledge that sin is a part of life. Something that we will continue to do, despite our best efforts. Now, maybe it's that we subconsciously don't try hard enough to alter our behavior or it REALLY is impossible to not sin, either way, people continue to sin and continue to ask forgiveness.

I recognize that there are some homosexuals who believe that what they are doing isn't wrong at all. Those would be the homosexuals who do not take the whole of the bible literally or those who think the volume of material in the bible dedicated to accepting outcasts and sinners outweighs the few lines condemning homosexuals. But I would also expect few of those homosexuals to want to be married in the church.

Some homosexuals, not an immense number, may want to marry under god. They may feel that what they are doing isn't the way god created things or how people were MEANT to be (note that I do NOT believe this in any way). So they still want to be married under the church, acknowledging that they may be sinning, but trying to be better people in spite of that. They may not be going about that in the best way. But not all of us go about reforming ourselves in the best ways possible either.

I see your points about the word of god saying homosexuality is a sin and that gay marriage is wrong. But the expressive message of christianity isn't altered in marrying two sinners that happen to be homosexual.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1966 Views
I disagree on the latter part - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1319 Views
I follow your point... - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1303 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1299 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1269 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1138 Views
You didn't read my post. - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1176 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1250 Views
Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1212 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1189 Views
You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1320 Views
Re: You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1169 Views
Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1221 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1067 Views
Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1327 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 631 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 657 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1234 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1231 Views
Also also: - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1213 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1190 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1260 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1143 Views
Also - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1276 Views
And wrong again. - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1301 Views
Not so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1132 Views
Yes, so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1082 Views
Let's be reasonable here - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1195 Views
Why do you get to judge? - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1226 Views
I don't - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1102 Views
OK. - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1227 Views
Re: OK. - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1162 Views
Then please stop. - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1186 Views
What's wrong with discussion? - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1137 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1155 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1175 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1155 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1039 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1172 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1145 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1247 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1119 Views
You are wrong - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 967 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1043 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1144 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1226 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1217 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1146 Views
Gah. - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1089 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 584 Views
What a mature response. - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1297 Views
Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1227 Views
Re: Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1167 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1089 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1180 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1200 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1107 Views
+1 - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 980 Views
Hehe - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1026 Views
Um - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1242 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 578 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 612 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 516 Views
It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1091 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1166 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1259 Views
It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1181 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1158 Views
Nonsense - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1106 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1075 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1194 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1124 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1249 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1232 Views
*NM* - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 417 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1205 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1191 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 582 Views
really? - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1061 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 984 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 548 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1030 Views
Which is interesting - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1018 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 997 Views
Original poster. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 611 Views
- 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1052 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1066 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 967 Views
Ya know?!? - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1083 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1180 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1201 Views
There is a difference... - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1231 Views
No you don't. - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1208 Views
That's another concern - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1267 Views
Not quite my point - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1136 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1267 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1096 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1193 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1027 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1045 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1063 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1081 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1210 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1142 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1226 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1092 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1193 Views
Of course it would - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1277 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 634 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 625 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1159 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 624 Views
Simples - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1168 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1129 Views
So. - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1018 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1526 Views
Agreed *NM* - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 506 Views
I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 963 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1159 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 653 Views
Naturally. - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1151 Views
I know I do *NM* - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 588 Views
Another thing - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1244 Views
A couple of things - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1145 Views
I disagree - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1284 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1231 Views
there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1273 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1160 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1093 Views
One point about Prop. 8 - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1130 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1055 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1143 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 964 Views
there are major flaws in your argument - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1267 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 921 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 541 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 545 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1164 Views
I feel your pain *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 632 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1230 Views
100% agreed. - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1258 Views
This. *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 465 Views
You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1174 Views
By that token - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1085 Views
My God.... - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1130 Views
no You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1076 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1146 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1256 Views
Fair enough. - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1207 Views
Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1124 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1173 Views
So then.... - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1102 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 963 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1268 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1321 Views
+1 - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1282 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1203 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1032 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1211 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 592 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 607 Views
It's not snarky. - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1166 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1434 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1082 Views
*shrug* - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1269 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1065 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1257 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1158 Views
LOL - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1134 Views
Re: LOL - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1075 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1123 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1053 Views
No, marriage started because of property. - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1154 Views
So then two things come to mind... - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1134 Views
Only two? - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1126 Views
Is this the same guy... - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1038 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1116 Views
That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1316 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1167 Views
Oh, I hope not - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1169 Views
I may be wrong - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1131 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1055 Views
True enough - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1347 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1125 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1121 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1123 Views
moot, not mute - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1409 Views
damn - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1205 Views
Actually, I agree with that - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1021 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1015 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1080 Views
Rights.... - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1092 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1120 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1236 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 642 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1253 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 583 Views
Starting again - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1225 Views
Not at all - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1152 Views
Re: Not at all - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 935 Views
Agreed *NM* - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 483 Views
Oh dear - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1047 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 613 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 985 Views
I'm curious - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1113 Views
- 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 980 Views
Okay, good. - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1168 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1198 Views
very nicely said *NM* - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 493 Views

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