You are the one who refuses to accept that churches might wrongfully discriminate at all.
Because it's not possible under law. Law leaves private institutions free to do what they will, so long as what they do does not hurt people or their property. I'm not sure why you find that so difficut to accept, since everyone has pointed out to you that it is so, and Americans who know Constitutional matters have given you citations.
The real question here is not what churches ought to believe (frankly, I don't care) but what they ought to be allowed to do. I believe that banning gay marriage is discrimination. I believe this because sins are accepted in other parts of christianity and even embraced as something to be dealt with before god.
What they believe and what they do is inextricably linked. Churches do not do what they don't believe, and nor should they have to. Sins are not accepted. We acknowledge people commit sins, but we require that they try not to. Because we're not perfect, we continue to sin, but then we have to repent and ask for forgiveness.
What churches do you think are happy for people to continue sinning? That's another thing you refuse to answer.
Some, not all, churches do pass out condoms to young people, in the hopes that they will avoid pregnancy out of wedlock. Is this not a form of sanctioning premarital sex? At least, in the same sense that gay marriage would be?
Not all churches think pre-marital sex is wrong. You seem to think that the Christian religion is monolithic. It's very much not.
Some, not all, churches allow divorce. Does this not diminish wedding vows? Which are to be eternal before god. Is this not a form of sanctioning a sin?
Again, those churches that sanction divorce do not consider it to be a sin. Christianity is not monolithic.
If I'm grossly ignoring your points and refusing to listen, please enlighten me. But I would appreciate if you show me how my points are not valid.
I believe I just have.
And, please note that I have been referring to my church in my responses, not all churches. I know what I believe, what my church believes, and what that means we practice. That's what I can talk about. For the rest, I make assumptions. Well-grounded ones, mind you.
OK. First, private institutions cannot do whatever they want. The civil rights act outlines that discrimination based on race, gender, or ethnicity is illegal. Granted, sexual preference is not included there, the supreme court ruled that discrimination in private institutions is only permitted when the expressive message (or as I said, the essence of the church) of the institution is altered.
I understand that christianity is not monolithic, but I know for a fact that many churches claiming to take the bible literally engage in these practices. I can show you articles if you'd like. Not all churches as I said engage in these practices, but some do. And some of those churches do still believe that wedding vows are sacred, and premarital sex is a sin.
The difference is that they acknowledge that sin is a part of life. Something that we will continue to do, despite our best efforts. Now, maybe it's that we subconsciously don't try hard enough to alter our behavior or it REALLY is impossible to not sin, either way, people continue to sin and continue to ask forgiveness.
I recognize that there are some homosexuals who believe that what they are doing isn't wrong at all. Those would be the homosexuals who do not take the whole of the bible literally or those who think the volume of material in the bible dedicated to accepting outcasts and sinners outweighs the few lines condemning homosexuals. But I would also expect few of those homosexuals to want to be married in the church.
Some homosexuals, not an immense number, may want to marry under god. They may feel that what they are doing isn't the way god created things or how people were MEANT to be (note that I do NOT believe this in any way). So they still want to be married under the church, acknowledging that they may be sinning, but trying to be better people in spite of that. They may not be going about that in the best way. But not all of us go about reforming ourselves in the best ways possible either.
I see your points about the word of god saying homosexuality is a sin and that gay marriage is wrong. But the expressive message of christianity isn't altered in marrying two sinners that happen to be homosexual.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
Gay Marriage
- 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
2014 Views
I disagree on the latter part
- 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM
1352 Views
I follow your point...
- 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM
1339 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously.
- 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM
1375 Views
See, that's what I'm saying...
- 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM
1307 Views
You didn't read my post.
- 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM
1225 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post
- 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
1300 Views
Um, you're wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
1249 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
1249 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
1220 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
1220 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM
626 Views
You're still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
1354 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
1354 Views
Re: You're still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
1207 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
1207 Views
Again, you are still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
1270 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
1270 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
1104 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
1104 Views
Wrong definition of "club"
- 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM
1363 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club"
- 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM
1268 Views
Also
- 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM
1315 Views
And wrong again.
- 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
1335 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
1335 Views
Not so quick!
- 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
1170 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
1170 Views
Yes, so quick!
- 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM
1119 Views
Let's be reasonable here
- 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
1230 Views
Why do you get to judge?
- 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM
1266 Views
I don't
- 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM
1149 Views
OK.
- 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM
1259 Views
Re: OK.
- 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM
1220 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
- 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM
1164 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
- 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM
1277 Views
Then please stop.
- 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
1225 Views
- 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
1225 Views
What's wrong with discussion?
- 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM
1175 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something.
- 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
1197 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
- 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM
1080 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
- 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM
1207 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
- 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM
1182 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
- 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM
1283 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes.
- 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM
1181 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
- 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM
1264 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
- 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM
1175 Views
Gah.
- 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM
1132 Views
What a mature response.
- 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM
1334 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se.
- 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM
1133 Views
Um
- 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM
1282 Views
That's a very good question. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM
598 Views
It makes no sense
- 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM
1124 Views
Re: It makes no sense
- 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM
1200 Views
Re: It makes no sense
- 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM
1291 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
- 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM
1115 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
- 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM
1226 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
- 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM
1282 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
- 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM
1234 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that!
*NM*
- 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
597 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
1027 Views
*NM*
- 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
597 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
1027 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM*
- 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM
564 Views
Yes
- 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM
1065 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off.
- 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM
1101 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage
- 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM
1304 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately.
- 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM
1127 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing.
- 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM
1174 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me.
- 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM
1183 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem.
- 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
1165 Views
What in the world would that accomplish?
- 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM
1226 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently.
- 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM
1063 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition..
- 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM
1079 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough*
- 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM
1110 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it
- 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM
1117 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit.
- 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM
1240 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better
- 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM
1174 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful?
- 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM
1263 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic
- 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM
1123 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM
662 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views
*NM*
- 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
642 Views
*NM*
- 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
642 Views
Simples
- 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM
1199 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism
- 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM
1164 Views
So.
- 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM
1049 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad
- 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM
1559 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny
- 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
1380 Views
- 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
1380 Views
Agreed *NM*
- 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM
519 Views
I love you, Camilla
- 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM
995 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla
- 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM
1190 Views
A couple of things
- 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM
1178 Views
there is major flaw in your argument
- 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM
1307 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument
- 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM
1195 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage
- 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM
1127 Views
One point about Prop. 8
- 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM
1162 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong
- 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM
1090 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it.
- 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM
1183 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons
- 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM
998 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions.
- 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM
1164 Views
there are major flaws in your argument
- 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM
1309 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church.
- 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM
954 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional.
- 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM
1264 Views
You are absolutely wrong
- 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM
1204 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin.
- 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM
1136 Views
Why do people equate....
- 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM
1157 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning...
- 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM
1209 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM*
- 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM
656 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM
622 Views
Re: Why do people equate....
- 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM
1367 Views
+1
- 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM
1315 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla.
- 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM
1237 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed"
- 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM
1065 Views
Which speaks highly of you....
- 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM
1242 Views
This is being very petty. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM
604 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM
628 Views
It's not snarky.
- 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM
1216 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment...
- 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM
1475 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations?
- 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM
1114 Views
Re: Why do people equate....
- 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM
1301 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious
- 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM
1166 Views
Ok, so if the state does then...
- 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM
1091 Views
No, marriage started because of property.
- 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
1187 Views
So then two things come to mind...
- 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
1169 Views
Only two?
- 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
1160 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
1160 Views
That's a little difficult to do
- 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM
1372 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do
- 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM
1212 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights
- 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM
1157 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back...
- 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM
1167 Views
Actually, I agree with that
- 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
1059 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about
- 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM
1156 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state.
- 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
1270 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM
655 Views
Starting again
- 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
1282 Views
Not at all
- 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM
1185 Views
Re: Not at all
- 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM
984 Views
Agreed *NM*
- 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM
499 Views
Oh dear
- 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM
1082 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft?
- 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM
1234 Views

*NM*
*NM*
*NM*