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Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
I don't think all of three lines in the bible amounts to the expressive message of christianity.


Personally, my faith doesn't hinge on those lines, but there are people out there to whom they matter quite a bit.

Who are you to judge what the core message of their faith is?


But we live in a multicultural nation. Different faiths and ideas must coexist, so SOMEONE must judge. I'm not saying that I ought to, only that discussion ought to occur on whether something is a core tenet. I think if you talk to most christians, when you ask them to explain the essence of their christianity, they won't mention gay marriage. Obviously that's not something true for everyone, but for many I think it is.

For those churches that take the bible literally, it seems pretty clear that they are discriminating. They marry sinners all the time, and even "sanction" some sins, yet homosexuality is above and beyond acceptance.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to make this kind of judgment. But the world isn't perfect and we do have to make this kind of judgment.


The people who judge if their expressed message is altered are the people whose expressed message is in question... or, if they get sued, the courts.


I only wanted to better understand where people were coming from. This certainly isn't a bad thing is it?

Though I never intended it to take a hundred or so posts to clarify things.

You've certainly come a long way since your first comment on this thread.

Though I'm interested in what you actually think of my points now that we can agree that discrimination isn't automatically allowed in private institutions.


I honestly think you misunderstand discrimination laws, and seek to go much too far with your sweeping changes.

This said as a Bi man raised in a southern baptist home.
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.

You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill

*MySmiley*
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1948 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1304 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1289 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1281 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1249 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1119 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1159 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1207 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1195 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1169 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 604 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1303 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1153 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1204 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1052 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1309 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 622 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 650 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1213 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1213 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1197 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1146 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1242 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1126 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1255 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1281 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1117 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1065 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1177 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1206 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1086 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1204 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1143 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1096 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1211 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1170 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1119 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1139 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1156 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1142 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1021 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1154 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1129 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1229 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1102 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 951 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1026 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1127 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1208 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1199 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1129 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1073 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 578 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1280 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1202 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1149 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1074 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1162 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1184 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1089 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 963 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1009 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1225 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 571 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 606 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 507 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1072 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1148 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1239 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1164 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1140 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1088 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1055 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1175 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1107 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1233 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1212 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 411 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1186 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1169 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 575 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1044 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 968 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 541 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1012 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1001 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 980 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 605 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1035 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1049 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 950 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1067 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1164 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1184 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1214 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1191 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1248 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1119 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1249 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1080 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1122 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1132 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1115 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1170 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1011 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1027 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1040 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1063 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1193 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1127 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1208 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1077 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1177 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1261 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 626 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 618 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1142 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 618 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1148 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1112 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 998 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1506 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1336 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 499 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 944 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1137 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 645 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1133 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 579 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1228 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1130 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1250 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1213 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1253 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1142 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1075 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1085 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1039 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1125 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 948 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1110 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1220 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 902 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 534 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 537 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1149 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 623 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1214 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1221 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 459 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1157 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1067 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1113 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1061 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1129 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1087 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1238 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1190 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1104 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1155 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1086 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 942 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1249 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 633 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 600 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1303 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1263 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1187 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1015 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1194 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 586 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 601 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1129 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1414 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1066 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1252 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1046 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1230 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1141 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1098 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1056 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1105 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1039 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1136 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1116 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1112 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1022 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1101 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1279 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1147 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1155 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1101 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1036 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1332 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1110 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1102 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1109 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1376 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1186 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1003 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 995 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1064 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1074 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1102 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1220 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 635 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1238 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 576 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1207 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1134 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 919 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 474 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1029 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 605 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 924 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1090 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 964 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1146 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1182 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 486 Views
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