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That seems a little myopic to me. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/10/2010 09:16:27 AM
(edit because I'm dumb and forgot to preview)

A question: Do you "support" atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there's no "Christian" movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?


Personally, as a Christian, I do note vote *against* Gay marriage. I wouldn't for *for* it either, though. I view homosexuality as the Bible does, as sin. I also happen to see that the Bible points out *a lot* of things as sin, like lying and adultery, and that there is little value to singling out Gay people as being some kind of "super" sinners. We've all fallen short and, while homosexuality has a much bigger "gross" factor to the rest of us, it doesn't make it legitimate grounds for demonizing folk.

Whether or not you are demonizing homosexuals, the simple fact is that they are being treated differently than all the other sinners. Sure, we're all sinners in the eyes of the Lord, great, but all those other sinners can still be married. If gays aren't super sinners, as you put it, why are they singled out in this regard? You state that you don't support gay marriage without addressing this simple disconnect. And whether or not I agree with his argument that this leads to an implicit sanctioning of their bullying or whatever other mistreatment, that kind of renders the rest of your argument rather academic.

Gays can get married under both secular and Church law to all the same people they could if they were straight. Likewise, just because I'm straight doesn't make gay sex OK in the eyes of the Church, it just means it holds no appeal for me. It LOOKS different when you're affected by it, but ultimately I don't see it any differently than saying, "My best friend married my ex-girlfriend and now God and the law say I can't; WHY DO THEY PERSECUTE ME?!!! O^" The same rules apply to everyone, but the particular form that takes will vary with the person and their actions.

At the risk of re-opening another can of worms, I'll just note in passing that there's no explicit prohibition on two men being in love or even living together as domestic partners or whatever: They just can't have sex with each other any more than they could if they were just roommates. That leads us back to how important ones sexual gratification is relative to ones faith, but it's not really about sexual orientation at all (ask any preachers daughter who's been to Prom.... :winky: )
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Love the Sinner Roland00 - 13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM 1333 Views
I have to think about that for a while. nossy - 13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM 883 Views
Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations Roland00 - 13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM 811 Views
That is not what I think requires thought nossy - 13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM 818 Views
Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try or how much I would do Jean Grey Roland00 - 13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM 950 Views
for ze record nossy - 14/10/2010 02:54:07 AM 825 Views
ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM* random thoughts - 13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM 405 Views
I don't think it's the belief's themselves LadyLorraine - 14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM 846 Views
The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned random thoughts - 14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM 833 Views
Re: I have to think about that for a while. Rebekah - 13/10/2010 06:29:09 PM 823 Views
He was very frank but completely founded Fox and Ravens - 13/10/2010 04:34:46 PM 908 Views
Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian) Zalis - 13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM 927 Views
I'm not sure that is true snoopcester - 13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM 793 Views
When's the last time you heard the quote attributed to anyone else? Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM 782 Views
That many people don't know the correct origin doesn't change it though snoopcester - 13/10/2010 09:31:13 PM 922 Views
I think you are missing his point Roland00 - 13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM 881 Views
Question (and this one actually is asking for information )... Legolas - 13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM 716 Views
Yes and no Roland00 - 13/10/2010 06:53:26 PM 990 Views
Okay, fair enough. *NM* Legolas - 13/10/2010 07:48:21 PM 360 Views
I would think... damookster - 14/10/2010 04:35:31 AM 870 Views
I have seen gays be bullied before random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM 922 Views
You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM* Roland00 - 13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM 362 Views
why do you believe that? Because I don't agree with what you said? random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:30:27 PM 832 Views
I said you aren't listening to a thing I said, for you didn't respond to anything that I wrote Roland00 - 13/10/2010 07:52:50 PM 817 Views
you are not interested in talking to anyone who doesn't agree with you random thoughts - 13/10/2010 09:01:03 PM 813 Views
I think there's truth in this as well. Legolas - 13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM 850 Views
churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it random thoughts - 14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM 817 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM 887 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point Roland00 - 13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM 892 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point Zalis - 14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM 910 Views
Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level Roland00 - 14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM 920 Views
Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level Zalis - 14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM 940 Views
Do you know greek or hebrew? Roland00 - 14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM 779 Views
I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you? Zalis - 14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM 913 Views
There's a good case on both sides (try Strong's Concordance, if you haven't, btw. ) Joel - 15/10/2010 05:09:21 AM 1353 Views
I don't look to Christianity for my answers Roland00 - 15/10/2010 03:02:16 PM 885 Views
Re: I don't look to Christianity for my answers Zalis - 15/10/2010 04:27:25 PM 936 Views
You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point Rowland - 13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM 954 Views
so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying? random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM 821 Views
Re: You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:23:07 PM 871 Views
That seems a little myopic to me. Joel - 14/10/2010 09:16:27 AM 826 Views
Many good points there; I think I'll let you play Defender of the Faith for a bit. Joel - 14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM 927 Views
I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view random thoughts - 13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM 821 Views
That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things ßelals Girl - 13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM 912 Views
I mostly agree ironclad - 13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM 980 Views
most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance random thoughts - 14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM 812 Views
I thought I pretty much agreed with you on that point ironclad - 14/10/2010 07:44:07 PM 854 Views
Let me see if I can understand where we agree, it is hard to do with all the Sarcasm Roland00 - 13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM 872 Views
Meh. He's not entirely incorrect. But not all Christians are anti-gay. Ghavrel - 13/10/2010 08:43:04 PM 876 Views
It is better to be a Tolkein than a Token Roland00 - 13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM 844 Views
If I were a Tolkien liberal Christian, wouldn't that make me an American Roman Catholic? *NM* Ghavrel - 13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM 331 Views
Interesting scalius - 13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM 1153 Views
Sometime rants do work and change people's mind Roland00 - 13/10/2010 09:23:39 PM 750 Views
and sometoimes they are just rants *NM* random thoughts - 13/10/2010 10:01:55 PM 341 Views
Okay my response now Roland00 - 14/10/2010 06:04:02 PM 882 Views
His first three sentences were totally unecessary. The rest is conspiracy-laden nonsense. everynametaken - 14/10/2010 12:37:06 AM 928 Views
He becomes what he hates. eucatastrophe - 14/10/2010 02:40:19 AM 1019 Views
Good stuff. *NM* Aeryn - 14/10/2010 02:56:44 AM 359 Views
Re: Gaps - 14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM 888 Views
I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker. Joel - 14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM 961 Views
Re: Gaps - 14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM 953 Views
It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Joel - 15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM 832 Views
Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Gaps - 16/10/2010 05:20:56 AM 921 Views
Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Joel - 16/10/2010 07:16:21 AM 829 Views
I don't think there is any question... damookster - 14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM 849 Views
If I may quibble: Ghavrel - 14/10/2010 05:22:22 AM 713 Views
A lot of Christian doctrine states that people cannot know who is worthy of God and it's not up to Helene - 14/10/2010 05:41:19 AM 850 Views
And a lot of Christians who should know better forget this. Joel - 14/10/2010 10:16:51 AM 911 Views
He's bullying Christians Helene - 14/10/2010 04:47:13 AM 837 Views
I agree BlackAdder - 14/10/2010 04:09:23 PM 922 Views
I think he's reading a lot of things into that letter that aren't there. Joel - 14/10/2010 08:22:13 AM 816 Views
Two seperate things are mingled here Bramhodoulos - 14/10/2010 09:50:42 AM 1043 Views
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