That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
Joel Send a noteboard - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
The only people still active in it are basically just shooting off back and forth with... Nuh uh, you're wrong! Nope, you're wrong! But, you know, with a great deal more rhetoric. That's funny since the post, and the position of the remaining active threads, is that the other's, not their own, rhetoric is partially to blame here.
A nice microcosm of the national media and political sound bytes here... and nothing but more noise.
A nice microcosm of the national media and political sound bytes here... and nothing but more noise.
It's very tempting to throw up my hands and say, "to hell with it!" However, it's no longer a purely academic matter where we can afford to just agree to disagree (if it ever was that). Nineteen people were shot and six of them, including a nine year old girl, are dead. It's fairly clear Loughner was apolitical, but with a MySpace and Facebook account to complement his violently anti-government conspiracy theories it's absurd to say he was obvlivious to all the paranoid extremist hate mongering of the past two years. Sure, he may not have aligned with the political right OR left, but the sad truth is the Tea Party couldn't have directed their rhetoric at him any better if they'd tried.
Yet instead of acknowledging the near certainty their rhetoric nudged an already violent and unstable mind over the edge we're told that's libel. It's dishonorable and exploitive to say the far right influenced him at all--especially when he was OBVIOUSLY a liberal.
Let's see, political checklist:1) Reads Ayn Rand (like Ron Paul, who named his son after her): Conservative
2) Reads Hitler: Conservative
3) Reads Nietzsche, whom Hitler claimed as a primary inspiration: Conservative
4) Vehemently opposed a woman who may be the most liberal Congressman in the state that produced Goldwater and McCain: Conservative
5) Supports the Second Amendment as an absolute invioable right: Conservative
6) Reads Marx: Liberal
Yeah, how could anyone fail to see he's a liberal...?

It's fairly clear Loughner was an apolitical whackjob; he seems to have thought anyone even indirectly affiliated with government was part of a dehumanizing conspiracy against the human race, and had he been told one of the people he murdered was a conservative Republican it wouldn't have slowed him down for a minute. But this didn't happen in a vacuum, and the conceit he was utterly uninfluenced by all the paranoid militant hatred, not to mention inaccuracies and outright lies, spewed against Obama and his supporters over the last two years is worse than disingenuous: It's catastrophically dangerous. Palin and Co. wash their hands of him and say there's no way their inflammatory and often false rhetoric accusing Obama of everything from faking his birth certificate to treason to being a madrasa trained terrorist encouraged this. That frankly reminds me of non-violent Klansmen insisting strident demands for racial purity had NOTHING to do with the latest lynching, that "race war" is just a colorful term, not an invitation to murder--except Palin and her ilk go one step further and accuse those who say otherwise of libel.
I'm not saying anyone but Loughner should be prosecuted; he's the murderer here. But if there's even the SLIGHTEST chance all the inflammatory right wing rhetoric, the portrayals of Obama as a treasonous terrorist, the quotations of "extremism in defence of liberty is no vice" like it's gospel contributed to this, isn't it past time we toned it down a bit? Isn't it a bit irresponsible to shrug off that suggestion and continue business as usual, let alone indignantly call it libel, play the victim when six people are dead and 13 others injured? I submit that, deep down in their hearts, past the political bias where objective truth slumbers fitfully, the reason the demagogues attacked that suggestion as vehemently and belligerently as they've unceasingly done with Obama is because they know they played a role and are too locked into a "never retreat" mentality to admit it.
Meanwhile, my main point in THIS thread stands: Whether or not calling Palins crosshairs imagery dangerous IS "blood libel" it is a matter of FACT that Gabrielle Giffords called it that AND that Sarah Palin (among others) call THAT "blood libel". Once again, anyone convinced that kind of rhetoric didn't put her in danger should take it up with the woman who was shot.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 20/01/2011 at 03:32:22 AM
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
- 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
2151 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
- 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
1013 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
- 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
1178 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
- 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
1228 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
- 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
1547 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
- 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
1088 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
- 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
1115 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
- 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
1102 Views
Oh please don't you start to
- 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
952 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before.
- 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
1142 Views
it was used here and nobody commented
- 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
1022 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
- 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
1069 Views
It's funny you should say that...
- 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
1110 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
- 19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
1254 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim
- 19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
1186 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
- 19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
917 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that...
- 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
1092 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
- 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
1130 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright.
- 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
950 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
- 19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
993 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
- 19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
1113 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
- 17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
975 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
- 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
1153 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
- 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
1195 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
- 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
1343 Views
That means precisely nothing
- 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
1043 Views
It means everything.
- 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
1285 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic
- 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
893 Views
There are two points:
- 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
1103 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
- 19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
520 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
- 19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
1083 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
- 20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
1112 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
- 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
1178 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
- 20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
1043 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
- 20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
513 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
- 20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
1073 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic
- 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
1125 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
- 18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
1017 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
- 19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
1094 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
- 20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
1406 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
- 20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
1054 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
- 20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
1098 Views
so in other words you again missed the point
- 20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
1035 Views
Well, one of us did.
- 20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
1164 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
- 20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
789 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
- 20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
1233 Views
So I am a little confused on something...
- 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
1176 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
- 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
1312 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly...
- 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
1044 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
- 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
1067 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
- 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
1129 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
- 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
936 Views
No, they don't
- 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
1138 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
- 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
1239 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
- 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
1072 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
- 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
1129 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
- 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
1207 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
- 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
1187 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
- 20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
1016 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
- 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
951 Views
- 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
951 Views
way to dodge the point again
- 20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
989 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
- 20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
1052 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again*
- 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
1031 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it.
- 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
1048 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
- 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
1352 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
- 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
1038 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
- 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
1028 Views
That first line is says it all.
- 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
1110 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
- 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
1218 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
- 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
1107 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
- 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
1335 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
- 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
1124 Views
And I call bullshit
- 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
1254 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
- 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
1211 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
- 19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
1108 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
- 19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
516 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
- 20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
1191 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
- 18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
600 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
- 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
1056 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
- 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
512 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
- 17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
1064 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
- 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
483 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
- 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
1009 Views
- 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
1009 Views
Took you this long, huh?
- 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
947 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
- 18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
1288 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
- 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
978 Views
I'm just curious.
- 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
935 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
- 18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
1243 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
- 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
1162 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
- 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
990 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
- 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
1036 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you
- 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
969 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
- 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
1077 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't
- 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
874 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
- 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
972 Views
only in your does the connection exisit
- 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
1013 Views
No.
- 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
1090 Views
dude wake up
- 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
1218 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
- 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
1229 Views
Why not just blame Giffords?
- 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
1308 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
- 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
1137 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
- 18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
1084 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
- 18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
1167 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
- 19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
955 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
- 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
998 Views
- 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
998 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
- 19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
946 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
- 20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
1280 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
- 20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
1022 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
- 20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
983 Views
it was the national democrats
- 20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
1086 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
- 20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
1351 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
- 19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
993 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
- 20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
967 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
- 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
1145 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
- 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
885 Views
You missed the point, obviously.
- 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
996 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
- 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
1152 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
- 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
1164 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
- 22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
1140 Views

Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM*