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That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. Joel Send a noteboard - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
The only people still active in it are basically just shooting off back and forth with... Nuh uh, you're wrong! Nope, you're wrong! But, you know, with a great deal more rhetoric. That's funny since the post, and the position of the remaining active threads, is that the other's, not their own, rhetoric is partially to blame here.

A nice microcosm of the national media and political sound bytes here... and nothing but more noise.

It's very tempting to throw up my hands and say, "to hell with it!" However, it's no longer a purely academic matter where we can afford to just agree to disagree (if it ever was that). Nineteen people were shot and six of them, including a nine year old girl, are dead. It's fairly clear Loughner was apolitical, but with a MySpace and Facebook account to complement his violently anti-government conspiracy theories it's absurd to say he was obvlivious to all the paranoid extremist hate mongering of the past two years. Sure, he may not have aligned with the political right OR left, but the sad truth is the Tea Party couldn't have directed their rhetoric at him any better if they'd tried.

Yet instead of acknowledging the near certainty their rhetoric nudged an already violent and unstable mind over the edge we're told that's libel. It's dishonorable and exploitive to say the far right influenced him at all--especially when he was OBVIOUSLY a liberal. Let's see, political checklist:

1) Reads Ayn Rand (like Ron Paul, who named his son after her): Conservative

2) Reads Hitler: Conservative

3) Reads Nietzsche, whom Hitler claimed as a primary inspiration: Conservative

4) Vehemently opposed a woman who may be the most liberal Congressman in the state that produced Goldwater and McCain: Conservative

5) Supports the Second Amendment as an absolute invioable right: Conservative

6) Reads Marx: Liberal

Yeah, how could anyone fail to see he's a liberal...?

It's fairly clear Loughner was an apolitical whackjob; he seems to have thought anyone even indirectly affiliated with government was part of a dehumanizing conspiracy against the human race, and had he been told one of the people he murdered was a conservative Republican it wouldn't have slowed him down for a minute. But this didn't happen in a vacuum, and the conceit he was utterly uninfluenced by all the paranoid militant hatred, not to mention inaccuracies and outright lies, spewed against Obama and his supporters over the last two years is worse than disingenuous: It's catastrophically dangerous. Palin and Co. wash their hands of him and say there's no way their inflammatory and often false rhetoric accusing Obama of everything from faking his birth certificate to treason to being a madrasa trained terrorist encouraged this. That frankly reminds me of non-violent Klansmen insisting strident demands for racial purity had NOTHING to do with the latest lynching, that "race war" is just a colorful term, not an invitation to murder--except Palin and her ilk go one step further and accuse those who say otherwise of libel.

I'm not saying anyone but Loughner should be prosecuted; he's the murderer here. But if there's even the SLIGHTEST chance all the inflammatory right wing rhetoric, the portrayals of Obama as a treasonous terrorist, the quotations of "extremism in defence of liberty is no vice" like it's gospel contributed to this, isn't it past time we toned it down a bit? Isn't it a bit irresponsible to shrug off that suggestion and continue business as usual, let alone indignantly call it libel, play the victim when six people are dead and 13 others injured? I submit that, deep down in their hearts, past the political bias where objective truth slumbers fitfully, the reason the demagogues attacked that suggestion as vehemently and belligerently as they've unceasingly done with Obama is because they know they played a role and are too locked into a "never retreat" mentality to admit it.

Meanwhile, my main point in THIS thread stands: Whether or not calling Palins crosshairs imagery dangerous IS "blood libel" it is a matter of FACT that Gabrielle Giffords called it that AND that Sarah Palin (among others) call THAT "blood libel". Once again, anyone convinced that kind of rhetoric didn't put her in danger should take it up with the woman who was shot.
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This message last edited by Joel on 20/01/2011 at 03:32:22 AM
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 2079 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 933 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1113 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1159 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1101 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1470 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 1013 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 1038 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 1026 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 941 Views
Oh please don't you start to - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 884 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 1067 Views
it was used here and nobody commented - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 953 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 998 Views
It's funny you should say that... - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 1039 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 1017 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 1056 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1104 Views
I never said it was. - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1202 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 874 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 1018 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 1000 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1086 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1118 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1267 Views
That means precisely nothing - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 954 Views
It means everything. - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1213 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 823 Views
There are two points: - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 1029 Views
Re: It means everything. - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 852 Views
That's simply illogical. - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1238 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1111 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 1054 Views
So I am a little confused on something... - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1102 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1237 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 981 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 993 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 1053 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 871 Views
No, they don't - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 1065 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1144 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 1001 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 1036 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 1096 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1118 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 966 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 981 Views
There is no point - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 1011 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1259 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1276 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 1023 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 945 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 970 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 961 Views
That first line is says it all. - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 1042 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1152 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 1036 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 1039 Views
YOU are cherry picking. - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 976 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1249 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1087 Views
Yeah, your first was better - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 902 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 974 Views
Pretty much. - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 1044 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 478 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 448 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 929 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 487 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1123 Views
Took you this long, huh? - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 877 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 909 Views
I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 872 Views
Re: I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 1021 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 895 Views
like I said a matter of faith - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 885 Views
I find it interesting... - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 1036 Views
I mention her looks solely because... - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 921 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1092 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 905 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 947 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 897 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 1010 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 810 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 895 Views
only in your does the connection exisit - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 938 Views
No. - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 1015 Views
dude wake up - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1150 Views
So in your opinion... - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 887 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 936 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1230 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 1065 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 1074 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 532 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 819 Views
You missed the point, obviously. - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 925 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 999 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 850 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 514 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 1080 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1106 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1150 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1090 Views

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