Well, as you can see I'm trying to keep up with several people at the same time and hopefully I'm not confusing your arguments with them and thereby answering questions you didn't ask.
But your example of C. difficile is interesting, for I think it actually proves my point.
You claim that they have objectively "low biological fitness" because they have a very low poplulation, especially compared to other bacteria.
This does not actually have anything to do with the gene pool, unless you would say that all species of bacteria share the same gene pool (and besides, bacteria have a different type of gene pool anyway, since they don't sexually reproduce).
None the less, your clasification of "having low biological fitness" is principally based on their low frequency, not based upon their internal genetical code, or their strong phenotype in and of itself, but only on their frequency.
Next you say that when anti-biotics are applied they are the only ones (or one of the very few) who can survive and therefor increase their numbers.
And once antibiotics are stopped things go back to normal.
You conclude: "That is an example of natural selection. It does not necessarily select for any particular characteristic."
Great, but that's my point!
My problem is not with the notion that nature selects, or that the survivers contribute more to the gene pool or anything, but my question is that if NS does not select for "any particular characteristic", how can that knowledge help us understand NS?
Now you can come with a specific example where NS does select for trait X, but the problem is that NS as a whole cannot be "tested". It can be (and if you ask me: must be) assumed, but I can't think of a non-tautologous formulation of NS that is explanatory.
But your example of C. difficile is interesting, for I think it actually proves my point.
You claim that they have objectively "low biological fitness" because they have a very low poplulation, especially compared to other bacteria.
This does not actually have anything to do with the gene pool, unless you would say that all species of bacteria share the same gene pool (and besides, bacteria have a different type of gene pool anyway, since they don't sexually reproduce).
None the less, your clasification of "having low biological fitness" is principally based on their low frequency, not based upon their internal genetical code, or their strong phenotype in and of itself, but only on their frequency.
Next you say that when anti-biotics are applied they are the only ones (or one of the very few) who can survive and therefor increase their numbers.
And once antibiotics are stopped things go back to normal.
You conclude: "That is an example of natural selection. It does not necessarily select for any particular characteristic."
Great, but that's my point!
My problem is not with the notion that nature selects, or that the survivers contribute more to the gene pool or anything, but my question is that if NS does not select for "any particular characteristic", how can that knowledge help us understand NS?
Now you can come with a specific example where NS does select for trait X, but the problem is that NS as a whole cannot be "tested". It can be (and if you ask me: must be) assumed, but I can't think of a non-tautologous formulation of NS that is explanatory.
Natural selection
- 06/08/2011 03:51:26 PM
1170 Views
selection for suitability
- 06/08/2011 04:18:51 PM
814 Views
Thanks for your responce
- 06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
935 Views
- 06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
935 Views
I can't speak for LadyLorraine and won't try, but here's how I see it:
- 06/08/2011 06:49:49 PM
888 Views
Just a question
- 06/08/2011 07:18:09 PM
893 Views
Yes it can
- 06/08/2011 07:41:59 PM
740 Views
But how?
- 06/08/2011 07:52:10 PM
952 Views
Re: Just a question
- 06/08/2011 07:49:21 PM
967 Views
I'm not sure I understand you
- 06/08/2011 08:20:44 PM
862 Views
All tautologies are truisms, but not all truisms are tautologies.
- 06/08/2011 09:38:12 PM
900 Views
Then it is still a tautology
- 06/08/2011 09:45:33 PM
906 Views
You can know it's beneifical to a particular individual, but it's harder to say for populations.
- 06/08/2011 10:18:16 PM
988 Views
Maybe...
- 07/08/2011 01:55:54 PM
854 Views
I'm more inclined toward his logic, but possibly toward your conclusions.
- 09/08/2011 12:45:46 AM
922 Views
we can't really know ahead of time what makes a specific trait benefical in that environment
- 09/08/2011 06:16:02 PM
978 Views
As I understand it
- 06/08/2011 06:04:44 PM
803 Views
Better...
- 06/08/2011 06:36:38 PM
803 Views
Did you perhaps mean "beneficial in the environment" rather than "beneficial to the environment"?
- 06/08/2011 06:34:44 PM
926 Views
yes. I did not really phrase that very clearly. *NM*
- 09/08/2011 06:14:11 PM
368 Views
No biggy; from what Bram said, I underestimated how well you were understood anyway.
- 09/08/2011 06:45:16 PM
851 Views
Hmmm... there's some truth to that
- 06/08/2011 06:36:35 PM
884 Views
The complexity of the problem makes it all but impossible to falsify...
- 06/08/2011 08:26:06 PM
903 Views
The questions go deeper
- 06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM
932 Views
Re: The questions go deeper
- 06/08/2011 09:10:32 PM
899 Views
I think I know why you don't understand my question.
- 06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
933 Views
How many equation's has Moraine screwed up?
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
380 Views
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
380 Views
100% I think Moriaine is a very beneficial trait that contributes a lot to the RAFO pool
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
406 Views
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
406 Views
Re: Natural selection
- 07/08/2011 03:00:30 AM
903 Views
Thanks a lot
- 07/08/2011 01:38:39 PM
1038 Views
2 things
- 07/08/2011 04:00:35 PM
795 Views
Re: 2 things
- 07/08/2011 04:33:00 PM
1009 Views
Re: 2 things
- 07/08/2011 05:48:26 PM
849 Views
My best guess
- 07/08/2011 06:00:28 PM
892 Views
Re: My best guess
- 07/08/2011 06:37:58 PM
800 Views
Re: My best guess
- 07/08/2011 06:47:26 PM
975 Views
