Well, as you can see I'm trying to keep up with several people at the same time and hopefully I'm not confusing your arguments with them and thereby answering questions you didn't ask.
But your example of C. difficile is interesting, for I think it actually proves my point.
You claim that they have objectively "low biological fitness" because they have a very low poplulation, especially compared to other bacteria.
This does not actually have anything to do with the gene pool, unless you would say that all species of bacteria share the same gene pool (and besides, bacteria have a different type of gene pool anyway, since they don't sexually reproduce).
None the less, your clasification of "having low biological fitness" is principally based on their low frequency, not based upon their internal genetical code, or their strong phenotype in and of itself, but only on their frequency.
Next you say that when anti-biotics are applied they are the only ones (or one of the very few) who can survive and therefor increase their numbers.
And once antibiotics are stopped things go back to normal.
You conclude: "That is an example of natural selection. It does not necessarily select for any particular characteristic."
Great, but that's my point!
My problem is not with the notion that nature selects, or that the survivers contribute more to the gene pool or anything, but my question is that if NS does not select for "any particular characteristic", how can that knowledge help us understand NS?
Now you can come with a specific example where NS does select for trait X, but the problem is that NS as a whole cannot be "tested". It can be (and if you ask me: must be) assumed, but I can't think of a non-tautologous formulation of NS that is explanatory.
But your example of C. difficile is interesting, for I think it actually proves my point.
You claim that they have objectively "low biological fitness" because they have a very low poplulation, especially compared to other bacteria.
This does not actually have anything to do with the gene pool, unless you would say that all species of bacteria share the same gene pool (and besides, bacteria have a different type of gene pool anyway, since they don't sexually reproduce).
None the less, your clasification of "having low biological fitness" is principally based on their low frequency, not based upon their internal genetical code, or their strong phenotype in and of itself, but only on their frequency.
Next you say that when anti-biotics are applied they are the only ones (or one of the very few) who can survive and therefor increase their numbers.
And once antibiotics are stopped things go back to normal.
You conclude: "That is an example of natural selection. It does not necessarily select for any particular characteristic."
Great, but that's my point!
My problem is not with the notion that nature selects, or that the survivers contribute more to the gene pool or anything, but my question is that if NS does not select for "any particular characteristic", how can that knowledge help us understand NS?
Now you can come with a specific example where NS does select for trait X, but the problem is that NS as a whole cannot be "tested". It can be (and if you ask me: must be) assumed, but I can't think of a non-tautologous formulation of NS that is explanatory.
Natural selection
- 06/08/2011 03:51:26 PM
1303 Views
selection for suitability
- 06/08/2011 04:18:51 PM
942 Views
Thanks for your responce
- 06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
1067 Views
- 06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
1067 Views
I can't speak for LadyLorraine and won't try, but here's how I see it:
- 06/08/2011 06:49:49 PM
1025 Views
Just a question
- 06/08/2011 07:18:09 PM
1029 Views
Yes it can
- 06/08/2011 07:41:59 PM
869 Views
But how?
- 06/08/2011 07:52:10 PM
1085 Views
Re: Just a question
- 06/08/2011 07:49:21 PM
1111 Views
I'm not sure I understand you
- 06/08/2011 08:20:44 PM
1018 Views
All tautologies are truisms, but not all truisms are tautologies.
- 06/08/2011 09:38:12 PM
1050 Views
Then it is still a tautology
- 06/08/2011 09:45:33 PM
1081 Views
You can know it's beneifical to a particular individual, but it's harder to say for populations.
- 06/08/2011 10:18:16 PM
1124 Views
Maybe...
- 07/08/2011 01:55:54 PM
994 Views
I'm more inclined toward his logic, but possibly toward your conclusions.
- 09/08/2011 12:45:46 AM
1065 Views
we can't really know ahead of time what makes a specific trait benefical in that environment
- 09/08/2011 06:16:02 PM
1105 Views
As I understand it
- 06/08/2011 06:04:44 PM
947 Views
Better...
- 06/08/2011 06:36:38 PM
934 Views
Did you perhaps mean "beneficial in the environment" rather than "beneficial to the environment"?
- 06/08/2011 06:34:44 PM
1053 Views
yes. I did not really phrase that very clearly. *NM*
- 09/08/2011 06:14:11 PM
432 Views
No biggy; from what Bram said, I underestimated how well you were understood anyway.
- 09/08/2011 06:45:16 PM
980 Views
Hmmm... there's some truth to that
- 06/08/2011 06:36:35 PM
1043 Views
The complexity of the problem makes it all but impossible to falsify...
- 06/08/2011 08:26:06 PM
1034 Views
The questions go deeper
- 06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM
1069 Views
Re: The questions go deeper
- 06/08/2011 09:10:32 PM
1043 Views
I think I know why you don't understand my question.
- 06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
1080 Views
How many equation's has Moraine screwed up?
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
445 Views
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
445 Views
100% I think Moriaine is a very beneficial trait that contributes a lot to the RAFO pool
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
479 Views
*NM*
- 06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
479 Views
Re: Natural selection
- 07/08/2011 03:00:30 AM
1044 Views
Thanks a lot
- 07/08/2011 01:38:39 PM
1169 Views
2 things
- 07/08/2011 04:00:35 PM
924 Views
Re: 2 things
- 07/08/2011 04:33:00 PM
1140 Views
Re: 2 things
- 07/08/2011 05:48:26 PM
970 Views
My best guess
- 07/08/2011 06:00:28 PM
1042 Views
Re: My best guess
- 07/08/2011 06:37:58 PM
938 Views
Re: My best guess
- 07/08/2011 06:47:26 PM
1094 Views
