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Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide Isaac Send a noteboard - 23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM
Vehicle deaths are mostly accidental, a gun is designed to kill things, especially people. You can kill someone with a car quite easily, just a pain for premeditated murder of an individual. No law or safety feature on a car has made them one bit safer in regards to specifically trying to kill someone with one.

And gun homicides have made it over 10k by a hair from 2005-2007 and otherwise been under 10k for my other dataset, which is shorter so might be higher pre-1998, car deaths were so I'll skip those pre-1998 50k+ in favor of the low 40's from 1998 on. I don't think suicide is relevant to gun control, though shooting accidents may be if you want to dredge that up and add it to the 10k, but otherwise its sitting at 40+ to >10k, not 30-30. Take that as an FYI if you didn't know and if you did with a touch of opprobrium, unless you feel suicide by gun is relevant to gun control discussions. If so, I've never heard a serious, strong case for its inclusion and if you've got one go ahead but I don't think the average American who isn't already strongly for gun control will be swayed by the suicide rate even if it exceeded vehicle fatalities. It's just a separate animal.

As to which is easier, getting a car or getting a gun, gun. It's a constitutionally protected right, and operating a motor vehicle on a public road isn't, same as carrying a gun into a courthouse or police station or other public building isn't. Maybe carrying a gun on a public road shouldn't be except that a strong case can be made that transporting a firearm poses no increased risk to others using that road, hence there's numerous reasons to permit it and none to ban it.

i'm not going to pretend that meaningful gun control is going to prevent suicide, but it will certainly bring down the number of gun related deaths, so i included that number in my response. however, while there is a constitutionally protected right to bear arms, there is also a clause which says "a well regulated militia" that is consistently and constantly relegated to invisibility every time we have this discussion.

sure, you have the right to actually own guns, but if we are going to go to the level of justifying concealed carry with the second amendment, then that concealed carry should extend everywhere, including government buildings. that fact that it does not shows that there are still plenty of areas where we can legislate where and how you are able to exercise your rights without infringing on the right to own guns in the first place. as i said before, i favor the australian model, but in a pinch i would require a renewable training program (on the order of every 4-8 years like a driver's license) and gun registration if you want to legally own a gun.


Concealed isn't really a big factor in these spree killings, from a pragmatic perspective a concealed weapon allows someone to carry a gun without meeting instant fear or dislike form a large chunk of the population, gives them a tactical edge if attacked, and represents a global deterrence similar to how LoJack does. In any event, you know my opinion, if self-defense isn't grounds to buy a gun nothing is. As to licensing and registration, frankly I don't think any of the recent spree killings would have been effected. Training is a different story, the government has a clearly defined interest in seeing minimal accidental deaths, low crime, and ensuring a pool of persons able to defend the country. Therefore it clearly has the right to offer gun training at tax payer expense. Not mandatory training, though the legal right to draft people implies yes, but certainly we could begin training kids as the boy scouts do. I'm sure most of them would enjoy it and national defense readiness is sufficient grounds for federal subsidy to schools or groups like the BSA to offer it as an alternative gym/sports/civics class. No reason it has to stop at 18, I won't argue people have a duty to know how to shoot (I do, incidentally) but the gov't has a clear national defense reason to encourage large numbers of well-trained people and guns and ammo aren't budget busters, especially if its only voluntary. We could give out merit badges, make people more likely to attend.

That seems a good idea to me, gets that training in there, no need for mandatory when voluntary would achieve near identical results. Besides, even if you prefer mandatory the voluntary option makes a good interregnum.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics - 22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM 1201 Views
I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response. - 22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM 720 Views
I can think of two reasons off the top of my head - 22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM 752 Views
OK... - 22/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 719 Views
If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea - 26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM 568 Views
The effectiveness issue aside - 22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM 618 Views
Re: The effectiveness issue aside - 22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM 708 Views
If you think it would solve the debate then probably - 22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM 665 Views
Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification. - 22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM 628 Views
If it's shown to work - 23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM 710 Views
columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon... - 23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM 604 Views
I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.) - 23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM 749 Views
A fuller account of Gardner - 23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM 809 Views
Nice link. - 23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM 603 Views
Re: Nice link. - 23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM 581 Views
at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US - 23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM 662 Views
What is public safety worth to you? - 23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM 582 Views
it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it. - 23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM 518 Views
There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings. - 23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM 525 Views
there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect - 23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM 652 Views
Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence. - 23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM 715 Views
ok, here is my last word on the subject - 23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM 638 Views
9 people injured vs. 20 people dead. - 23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM 569 Views
it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country - 23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM 691 Views
Peter Odighizuwa comes to mind, that's also horrible logic - 23/12/2012 08:27:46 PM 578 Views
[citation needed] - 25/12/2012 04:54:14 PM 575 Views
Fair enough - 25/12/2012 09:06:43 PM 930 Views
It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous. - 26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM 671 Views
People die from all sort of causes - 22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM 638 Views
Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not? - 22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM 775 Views
Do bombs require certification? - 22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM 863 Views
i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks - 23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM 659 Views
That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances. - 23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM 620 Views
The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected - 23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM 627 Views
so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something.. - 23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM 555 Views
Obviously you didn't put pay attention - 23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM 585 Views
no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference - 23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM 574 Views
As usual, you are wrong on so many fronts... - 27/12/2012 10:39:04 PM 887 Views
Dicks and stones - 23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM 765 Views
FYI - I gave moondog a 30-day time-out via the ignore function. - 23/12/2012 05:48:13 AM 510 Views
FYI -- you didn't post to this board for 30+ days - 23/12/2012 07:21:44 AM 515 Views
cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take - 23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM 605 Views
Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962 - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 575 Views
except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't. - 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM 600 Views
Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide - 23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM 558 Views
Double *NM* - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 330 Views
Hat trick, never got that before *NM* - 23/12/2012 11:56:08 AM 290 Views
I'm not sure it's about guns. - 23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM 588 Views

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