Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide
Isaac Send a noteboard - 23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM
Vehicle deaths are mostly accidental, a gun is designed to kill things, especially people. You can kill someone with a car quite easily, just a pain for premeditated murder of an individual. No law or safety feature on a car has made them one bit safer in regards to specifically trying to kill someone with one.
Concealed isn't really a big factor in these spree killings, from a pragmatic perspective a concealed weapon allows someone to carry a gun without meeting instant fear or dislike form a large chunk of the population, gives them a tactical edge if attacked, and represents a global deterrence similar to how LoJack does. In any event, you know my opinion, if self-defense isn't grounds to buy a gun nothing is. As to licensing and registration, frankly I don't think any of the recent spree killings would have been effected. Training is a different story, the government has a clearly defined interest in seeing minimal accidental deaths, low crime, and ensuring a pool of persons able to defend the country. Therefore it clearly has the right to offer gun training at tax payer expense. Not mandatory training, though the legal right to draft people implies yes, but certainly we could begin training kids as the boy scouts do. I'm sure most of them would enjoy it and national defense readiness is sufficient grounds for federal subsidy to schools or groups like the BSA to offer it as an alternative gym/sports/civics class. No reason it has to stop at 18, I won't argue people have a duty to know how to shoot (I do, incidentally) but the gov't has a clear national defense reason to encourage large numbers of well-trained people and guns and ammo aren't budget busters, especially if its only voluntary. We could give out merit badges, make people more likely to attend.
That seems a good idea to me, gets that training in there, no need for mandatory when voluntary would achieve near identical results. Besides, even if you prefer mandatory the voluntary option makes a good interregnum.
And gun homicides have made it over 10k by a hair from 2005-2007 and otherwise been under 10k for my other dataset, which is shorter so might be higher pre-1998, car deaths were so I'll skip those pre-1998 50k+ in favor of the low 40's from 1998 on. I don't think suicide is relevant to gun control, though shooting accidents may be if you want to dredge that up and add it to the 10k, but otherwise its sitting at 40+ to >10k, not 30-30. Take that as an FYI if you didn't know and if you did with a touch of opprobrium, unless you feel suicide by gun is relevant to gun control discussions. If so, I've never heard a serious, strong case for its inclusion and if you've got one go ahead but I don't think the average American who isn't already strongly for gun control will be swayed by the suicide rate even if it exceeded vehicle fatalities. It's just a separate animal.
As to which is easier, getting a car or getting a gun, gun. It's a constitutionally protected right, and operating a motor vehicle on a public road isn't, same as carrying a gun into a courthouse or police station or other public building isn't. Maybe carrying a gun on a public road shouldn't be except that a strong case can be made that transporting a firearm poses no increased risk to others using that road, hence there's numerous reasons to permit it and none to ban it.
i'm not going to pretend that meaningful gun control is going to prevent suicide, but it will certainly bring down the number of gun related deaths, so i included that number in my response. however, while there is a constitutionally protected right to bear arms, there is also a clause which says "a well regulated militia" that is consistently and constantly relegated to invisibility every time we have this discussion.
sure, you have the right to actually own guns, but if we are going to go to the level of justifying concealed carry with the second amendment, then that concealed carry should extend everywhere, including government buildings. that fact that it does not shows that there are still plenty of areas where we can legislate where and how you are able to exercise your rights without infringing on the right to own guns in the first place. as i said before, i favor the australian model, but in a pinch i would require a renewable training program (on the order of every 4-8 years like a driver's license) and gun registration if you want to legally own a gun.
Concealed isn't really a big factor in these spree killings, from a pragmatic perspective a concealed weapon allows someone to carry a gun without meeting instant fear or dislike form a large chunk of the population, gives them a tactical edge if attacked, and represents a global deterrence similar to how LoJack does. In any event, you know my opinion, if self-defense isn't grounds to buy a gun nothing is. As to licensing and registration, frankly I don't think any of the recent spree killings would have been effected. Training is a different story, the government has a clearly defined interest in seeing minimal accidental deaths, low crime, and ensuring a pool of persons able to defend the country. Therefore it clearly has the right to offer gun training at tax payer expense. Not mandatory training, though the legal right to draft people implies yes, but certainly we could begin training kids as the boy scouts do. I'm sure most of them would enjoy it and national defense readiness is sufficient grounds for federal subsidy to schools or groups like the BSA to offer it as an alternative gym/sports/civics class. No reason it has to stop at 18, I won't argue people have a duty to know how to shoot (I do, incidentally) but the gov't has a clear national defense reason to encourage large numbers of well-trained people and guns and ammo aren't budget busters, especially if its only voluntary. We could give out merit badges, make people more likely to attend.
That seems a good idea to me, gets that training in there, no need for mandatory when voluntary would achieve near identical results. Besides, even if you prefer mandatory the voluntary option makes a good interregnum.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM
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I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response.
22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM
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I can think of two reasons off the top of my head
22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM
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If the schools that the children of our elected representatives attend are gaurded, so should mine.
26/12/2012 03:00:35 PM
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If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea
26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM
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The effectiveness issue aside
22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM
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Re: The effectiveness issue aside
22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM
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If you think it would solve the debate then probably
22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM
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Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification.
22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM
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If it's shown to work
23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM
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Of the many school shootings in recent years, I am aware of none where armed cops were present.
23/12/2012 12:47:32 AM
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columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon...
23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM
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I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.)
23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM
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you should try harder
23/12/2012 01:15:34 AM
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"a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket" is not stationed there.
23/12/2012 01:34:50 AM
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he still didn't stop the shooting, whether he was there before or after it started
23/12/2012 01:49:24 AM
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No kidding; how could he stop the shooting before it started if he was not there?
23/12/2012 02:16:59 AM
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A fuller account of Gardner
23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM
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Nice link.
23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM
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Re: Nice link.
23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM
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Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.)
26/12/2012 06:12:42 PM
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Re: Nice link.
23/12/2012 04:21:27 PM
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Gardner:If you’re going to put a police officer in a school, make sure his focus stays on the school
26/12/2012 06:40:41 PM
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The children are what matter, not the school. Surely this isn't something you disagree on?
29/12/2012 02:15:12 PM
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As usual Moondog, you are missing a BUNCH of facts on this one (links inside)
26/12/2012 07:51:29 PM
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at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US
23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM
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What is public safety worth to you?
23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM
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it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it.
23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM
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There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings.
23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM
- 525 Views
there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect
23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM
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Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence.
23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM
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ok, here is my last word on the subject
23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM
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9 people injured vs. 20 people dead.
23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM
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it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country
23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM
- 691 Views
Care to prove that negative? The burden to do so is on you as the person who made the assertion.
26/12/2012 06:47:07 PM
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It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous.
26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM
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Re: the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
22/12/2012 06:36:32 PM
- 747 Views
I believe it is fairly common in junior and high schools today, but not elementary schools.
22/12/2012 07:12:32 PM
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This entire post is completely irrelevant.
22/12/2012 07:27:45 PM
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Those who want univeral prohibition/access are equally fringe minorities.
22/12/2012 08:18:00 PM
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there is no Left or Right on this issue, there is only Sane and Insane
23/12/2012 12:59:08 AM
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also: it's insulting to tell parents their kids would be alive if only more guns were around
23/12/2012 01:30:53 AM
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People die from all sort of causes
22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM
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Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not?
22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM
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Do bombs require certification?
22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM
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No, they are pretty much illegal for the general public under all conditions.
22/12/2012 09:35:35 PM
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i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks
23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM
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That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances.
23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM
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The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected
23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM
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so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something..
23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM
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Obviously you didn't put pay attention
23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM
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no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference
23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM
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Dicks and stones
23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM
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cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take
23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM
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But over half of gun deaths are suicide.....so cars are much more dangerous to society. *NM*
23/12/2012 05:35:45 AM
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Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962
23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM
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except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't.
23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM
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Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide
23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM
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but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws
24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM
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More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
24/12/2012 04:27:04 AM
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Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
25/12/2012 04:49:54 PM
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Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
25/12/2012 08:41:53 PM
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Here is some interesting data.....knives are as dangerous as "non-handguns"
23/12/2012 05:45:08 AM
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I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to plug my new book, "How to Cook with Guns" *NM*
23/12/2012 03:04:06 PM
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there was a school mass stabbing in china the same day as sandy hook
23/12/2012 03:18:00 PM
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I am equally happy that the criminal was incompetant, but that does not diminish their lethality
27/12/2012 10:45:33 PM
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I'm not sure it's about guns.
23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM
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IMO it is about the media attention focuised on the perpetrator. Their name becomes history. *NM*
27/12/2012 10:47:15 PM
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