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I believe if you check civilizations record you will find the human population has steadily risen. Joel Send a noteboard - 04/03/2013 05:08:38 AM

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Social Security was NEVER sustainable. The sustainability of the program when it was presented was an illusion. Its sustainability was based on the US population increasing WITHOUT END. This is a complete physical impossibility, not to mention contrary to all the recorded history of advancing civilizations. It is not now, nor was it ever, a perpetually sustainable program, BECAUSE it is structured as a Ponzi. As long as there is no capital investment and growth, it can not survive, PERIOD. It is simple math (though with VERY big numbers).

A secondary argument against the program is that it is a VERY bad program (just how bad it is becomes hidden behind those same really big numbers). For every person you can point to and say "see it helped this person" or "It kept that person out of poverty" I can point to that same person and run the numbers for them and show you how much money they COULD HAVE HAD instead with a real investment plan. It is a very basic time/value of money calculation.

With the exception of a few first generation SS retiree recipients everyone else for the last 65 years has been hosed.


I believe you will also find the number of people too young, old and/or disabled to work has almost invariably been only a tiny fraction of those who are not.
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This message last edited by Joel on 04/03/2013 at 05:09:04 AM
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Can You Name the Largest US Program to ANNUALLY Collect More Than It Spent for 75 Straight Years? Joel - 28/02/2013 11:03:18 PM 1679 Views
Medicare? *NM* Aisha - 28/02/2013 11:38:22 PM 727 Views
No, Medicare has only been around about half as long. Joel - 28/02/2013 11:56:32 PM 1111 Views
Medicare has its own problems, and caused many more. You really do not want to have this debate. HyogaRott - 03/03/2013 03:03:15 PM 1036 Views
No, I do not, because Medicare and torts are invariably scapegoated for all problems with healthcare Joel - 04/03/2013 12:52:37 AM 1121 Views
I can argue with anyone on this (and have) btut first we need to break out that dictionary HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:45:06 AM 1009 Views
I am sure you can and have; ability to form arguments does not automatically grant them validity. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:11 PM 1105 Views
Like I said, short conversation, once everyone uses the same definitions. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:28:52 PM 1088 Views
From the way you're shitting yourself with glee, I'm going to say Social Security. Cannoli - 01/03/2013 12:45:50 AM 1217 Views
Hot dog, we have a wiener! Joel - 01/03/2013 01:40:18 AM 1194 Views
Also unlike Ponzis, Social Security was not meant to profit—it just did anyway. For 75 years. Joel - 01/03/2013 01:55:46 AM 1063 Views
It is a "Ponzi" by definition, any argument to the contrary just makes you look ignorant. HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:02:46 PM 1123 Views
Wait: An insurer is saying insurance is a Ponzi scheme? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:56:30 AM 1100 Views
You are making even lese sense than usual... Quite an acomplishment. *NM* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:31:39 AM 643 Views
Maybe, but my math usually checks, and I never have to explain what I omitted. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:55:50 PM 1192 Views
My math ALWAYS "checks" - it isn't personal, you are just making absolutely no sense, *NM* HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:27:11 PM 579 Views
It's the world's greatest Ponzi scheme, since the government forces us to give money to it. Anonymous2000 - 01/03/2013 01:05:05 PM 1075 Views
Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. Joel - 01/03/2013 03:53:02 PM 1155 Views
Good lord my friend..... Anonymous2000 - 02/03/2013 04:19:35 AM 1082 Views
I will just link what Isaac said; maybe then you will pay attention to it. Joel - 02/03/2013 04:56:34 AM 1149 Views
I really think you terribly misread what I said *NM* Isaac - 02/03/2013 06:59:56 AM 587 Views
Yes he did. He has very poor reading comprehension skills. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 03/03/2013 01:07:59 AM 609 Views
I really do not think I did. Joel - 04/03/2013 01:43:02 AM 1175 Views
I'm pretty confident you have Isaac - 04/03/2013 11:49:19 AM 1150 Views
We evidently disagree on what constitutes a Ponzi scheme. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:27 PM 1080 Views
No, I agree with a clear definiton, you seem not to want to absorb that Isaac - 11/03/2013 10:24:47 PM 1270 Views
It is neither an investment nor fraudulent. Joel - 12/03/2013 02:34:09 AM 1340 Views
Re: Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:22:34 PM 1149 Views
Fraud="money contributed is NOT invested for the contributor, but instead redistributed to others"? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:51:30 AM 1097 Views
You can try and misrepresent what I have said all you want, you are still wrong. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:45:24 AM 1156 Views
Dude, how is QUOTING you misrepresenting you?! And why must I ALWAYS ask that in these threads? Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:18 PM 1141 Views
Well, can you get more wrong? HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:45:08 PM 1052 Views
Okay, that's a really weird or naive standard to judge SS by Isaac - 01/03/2013 05:25:11 PM 1099 Views
Great; will you put that on a postcard to Cannoli, A2K, Rick Perry and the rest of your party? Joel - 01/03/2013 07:39:44 PM 1140 Views
I don't think I'd be telling them anything they don't already know... I mostly agree with them Isaac - 02/03/2013 05:38:56 AM 1304 Views
Means testing is flat out WRONG, and the contribution limit is a sticky debate HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:43:09 PM 1071 Views
Tell that to him not me, I didn't express an opinion and my implied one obviously doesn't favor it Isaac - 02/03/2013 05:28:14 PM 1188 Views
I was, I just hit the repy under the wrong post. He was the first to bering the two topics up. *NM* HyogaRott - 03/03/2013 04:09:34 AM 591 Views
It is insurance against old age poverty, not a longevity lottery. Joel - 04/03/2013 02:00:24 AM 1174 Views
It is not insurance, it is a pension plan, that also contains an overpriced LT disability insurance. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:00:42 AM 1183 Views
Social Security Insurance; says so right on the label. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:33 PM 1320 Views
You can call it BedroomWindowVitamins but it does not change what it acutally IS. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:34:42 PM 1076 Views
"Sustainable"=/="profitable;" bankruptcy was not always a given, as your fellows claim.. Joel - 04/03/2013 01:35:04 AM 1067 Views
Sustainable often means profitable, they are not universally synonmous but both at once is ideal Isaac - 04/03/2013 12:25:45 PM 1075 Views
That is the IDEAL, but NOT point: Sustainability needs no profit, yet profit ensures sustainability. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:48 PM 1560 Views
Your attacks on republican ideals would have more credit if you understood them random thoughts - 02/03/2013 04:27:34 AM 1121 Views
An ironic charge, since their defenses of those ideals typically suffer from the same defect. Joel - 02/03/2013 04:51:32 AM 1086 Views
I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you. nyah, nyah, nyah HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:58:10 PM 1015 Views
"Unsustainable"=/="meeting monthly obligations for 75 YEARS and still having $2.5 trillion left." Joel - 04/03/2013 01:03:09 AM 1152 Views
Please look up the definition of sustainable. Hint: "its worked so far" isn't it. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:25:19 AM 1161 Views
"As it is currently constructed/funded" is one HELL of a qualifier. Joel - 04/03/2013 04:41:30 AM 1200 Views
You just don't get it, or apparently are so in love with your political ideology you won't. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:58:15 AM 995 Views
I believe if you check civilizations record you will find the human population has steadily risen. Joel - 04/03/2013 05:08:38 AM 1063 Views
*sigh* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 12:15:22 PM 1065 Views
Birth RATES have fallen; POPULATION steadily rose in every period except the Black Deaths peak. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:36 PM 1369 Views
Re: Declining birth rates are the key HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:47:41 PM 1164 Views
Ironic that you would make my point while arguing against random thoughts - 04/03/2013 06:12:29 PM 987 Views
? Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:59 PM 1189 Views
you mistate his posistion and then rationalize that you know what he really meant random thoughts - 13/03/2013 12:06:44 PM 1008 Views
aH yes the great liberal investmetn/retirement plan that offers me a NEGATIGVE rate of return... HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 11:51:50 AM 1053 Views
Do you sincerely believe people earning $14,560/year can afford investing 4% of it? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:53:30 AM 1210 Views
*sigh* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:43:08 AM 1048 Views
I tried it with compound interest; $44.80/month at 4% for 50 years still does not get to $1.25 mill. Joel - 04/03/2013 04:24:51 AM 1088 Views
Here are some clues. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:37:39 AM 960 Views
It is math, not the Riddle of the Sphinx: EIther it adds up or does not. Joel - 04/03/2013 05:02:39 AM 1100 Views
Math is simple - Either you know how to calculate it or you don't HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 11:55:24 AM 1222 Views
Indeed. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:59 PM 1142 Views
Re: Indeed. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 05:00:10 PM 1276 Views
SS is supposed to supplement a proper pension, not provide your sole income after retirement moondog - 05/03/2013 03:53:03 AM 979 Views
Did you bother to actually read anything? HyogaRott - 05/03/2013 02:32:16 PM 1055 Views
do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? moondog - 05/03/2013 05:49:14 PM 1147 Views
Re: do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? --- yeah, I've BEEN there. HyogaRott - 05/03/2013 08:01:33 PM 1071 Views
how about respond to a post with logic and civility instead of being a troll for once? moondog - 05/03/2013 11:03:00 PM 1202 Views
All I have used is civility and logic, or least as much civility as was warrented. HyogaRott - 06/03/2013 04:28:04 AM 1140 Views
yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... moondog - 08/03/2013 07:22:24 PM 1186 Views
Re: yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... HyogaRott - 10/03/2013 01:42:26 PM 1049 Views
i'm not going to keep going in circles so i will finish with this.... moondog - 11/03/2013 10:08:53 PM 1349 Views
No loss. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:37:41 PM 996 Views
"Rah! Rah! Rah!" Can we please cut out all this blather and bile? Stephen - 05/03/2013 11:53:41 PM 1068 Views
spoken like a true enemy of the state! moondog - 06/03/2013 12:54:38 AM 1013 Views
Re: spoken like a true enemy of the state! Stephen - 08/03/2013 03:04:37 PM 1074 Views
I was not trolling, but clarifying. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:48 PM 1136 Views
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