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we will have to agree to disagree then moondog Send a noteboard - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM

if you honestly believe that the only possible recourse for all citizens is to turn on each other in times of crisis, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree about the message the NRA has been pushing, especially over the last couple of years. i can think of no left-wing group in existence in the US who pushes a false, dystopian image of life in American society that the only recourse is to turn on each other and has the legislative clout to make sure it passes through Congress.

the fact that we can sit here, 20 years after the first assault weapons ban, and have the exact same debate about guns in the exact same context should say something to how little we have moved as a society in terms of making things actually safer for everyone.

i have zero problem with responsible gun owners who treat their weapons and fellow citizens with respect. but if we're going to arm everyone, at that point we're telling everyone that laws are only as good as the person shooting the biggest gun, and that is not a society i want to be a part of. with everyone carrying a gun, we devolve into a society in which disputes are settled by whoever draws fastest rather than through a jury of our peers. if this is really what you envision for America's future, then i have nothing more to add to this discussion.

"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill Anonymous2000 - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1495 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics moondog - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 902 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* Roland00 - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 447 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... Anonymous2000 - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 775 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." moondog - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 772 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 828 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... moondog - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 749 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions Isaac - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 776 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 753 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 753 Views
Absolutely HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 817 Views
Re: Ben Franklin said it best... Isaac - 21/03/2013 07:16:25 AM 861 Views
There can be NO negotiation, that is the point. This is a Constitutionally protected Right. HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:03:54 PM 787 Views
Including Capital Letters in pronouncements do NOT make something so Isaac - 21/03/2013 02:56:43 PM 835 Views
1st Amendment absolutism suggests libel and slander are unconstitutional. moondog - 21/03/2013 07:24:34 PM 776 Views
One person's rights end where another's begin, as you well know. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:38:37 AM 776 Views
all the same, none of the proposed laws truly infringe on your right to keep or use those guns.... moondog - 22/03/2013 07:29:52 PM 816 Views
Apparently you did not read Feinstein's, you know the one that started this whole thread... HyogaRott - 23/03/2013 06:26:57 PM 794 Views
i'm aware of her statements, you'll have to actually prove your point.... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:35:11 AM 697 Views
Her bill tried to eliminate my (and everone's) right to own all but 2,000 specific weapons. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:30:56 PM 779 Views
"A well-regulated militia...." moondog - 25/03/2013 07:27:48 PM 916 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:23:07 PM 800 Views
we are long past the point where defense against tyranny is feasible moondog - 26/03/2013 07:48:37 PM 786 Views
Feasibility is not the issue, it is the rule of law. HyogaRott - 27/03/2013 03:55:24 PM 833 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 873 Views
That would depend, something of equal value Isaac - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 772 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? moondog - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 1030 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 779 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining moondog - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 846 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 927 Views
some answers moondog - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 1155 Views
Re: some answers Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 939 Views
Re: the NRA moondog - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 774 Views
This is a matter of POV bias Isaac - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 712 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then moondog - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 769 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining Isaac - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 766 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) moondog - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 704 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) Isaac - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 967 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding moondog - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 932 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap Isaac - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 937 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 1121 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try Isaac - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 759 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually moondog - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 740 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue Isaac - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 1022 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... moondog - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 841 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you Isaac - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 709 Views
There are many more laws and regulations on the industry than you seem to be aware of. HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 03:58:19 PM 805 Views
the existing laws and how they are enforced are completely different problems moondog - 20/03/2013 05:32:31 PM 827 Views
I have no problems with actually enforcing existing laws, in fact I want to see that before new 1 *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:17:40 AM 415 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce random thoughts - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 762 Views
as with most laws, some amount of grandfathering will probably be necessary moondog - 20/03/2013 05:34:57 PM 742 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 402 Views
I can't argue that random thoughts - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 763 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting moondog - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 834 Views
what is high capacity? random thoughts - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 728 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit moondog - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 754 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* Nighthawk - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 792 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes Jeordam - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 756 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 396 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* Jeordam - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 382 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 394 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* Nighthawk - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 366 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 833 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 767 Views
*NM* ironclad - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 407 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers Isaac - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 767 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 746 Views
So what's your solution? Smaller sentences? Or death penalty for everybody? Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 06:33:13 PM 751 Views
I don't have a truly viable one. I just have a bunch of ideas that no one would want to enact. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:49:58 PM 758 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book Isaac - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 784 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 717 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop Isaac - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 777 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* Ghavrel - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 380 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 931 Views
For what its worth.... Jeordam - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 730 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... callandor1000 - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 1055 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 1041 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... callandor1000 - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 1021 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 658 Views
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