Active Users:199 Time:19/05/2024 12:13:08 PM
Agreed on that much, certainly. Joel Send a noteboard - 23/07/2014 03:05:22 AM

I wish I could be as certain about THIS part:


View original postIf I agree for a minute to generalize and talk about "Europe" as a single entity, then I'd say Europe neither loves the Palestinians nor disdains the Jews. Believe it or not, but the Holocaust has in fact wiped out the persistent anti-Semitism that existed even in parts of the mainstream in pre-war Western Europe; and the growing Islamic presence in Europe in recent decades has considerably reduced it even on the far-right where it had survived (I wouldn't really say that's to their credit, though, it's more an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" deal in that last case). In East-Europe it's still somewhat more present in some countries, that's true (but those countries aren't usually very vocal on the topic of Israel, that I've noticed).

I know there are probably more European Jews where you are than anywhere except maybe the UK, and that between the two that is probably 70-80% of ALL European (or at least Western European) Jews. All that said, I still cannot help feeling the Holocaust did not so much wipe out European anti-Semitism as prompt it to export "the Jewish Question" once and for all and count a European anti-Semitic debt going back to Rome paid. In that sense, one could argue Europe was obligated to restore a Jewish nation-state because Europe destroyed it in the FIRST place, for the great crime of demanding independence sought by force when refused.

All that is just an ignorant immigrants impression, yet I cannot shake the strong recurrent feeling that exporting the Jewish Question never expunged Europes anti-Semitism, only prompted support for Palestinians as "anti-Semitism by proxy." One could go blind seeking European leaders denouncing Palestinian terrorism, even at the height of the Cold War, when Israel was a NATO- while Egypt and Syria were Soviet allies regularly and genocidally invading Israel: Even then, Europes NATO-member leaders had naught but condemnation for their own nominal Israeli allies, and excuses for their own nominal (if distant) foes. Maybe after the Munich Olympics—for a few weeks? Still did not justify occupying Gaza and the Golan after the three-nation a few months earlier, right?

That attitude has hardly softened since the Soviet demise removed incentive to support Israel; acknowledgement of Israels rights are ever and always as arguments they entitle Palestinians to the same: Never for Israel itself. Consider that even AFTER the Holocaust, Britain STILL refused to honor its decades-old pledge of an Israeli nation until the political embarrassment of a refugee ship sailing all over the Atlantic rather than accept any home but its own, while Ben Gurions terrorists bombed the King David Hotel to force their hand. After Romes genocidal Diaspora started it all, resulting in two millennia of Inquistion, Blood Libel, Shylocks, Dreyfus Affairs, pogroms, and Pales of Settlement, even the HOLOCAUST was not enough "by itself" to justify Europe restoring the Israeli state it eradicated.

So I do not believe it ended European anti-Semitism; if it had, Israel would have been restored in 1945 rather than 1948, and Europeans would not generally be more sympathetic to a 70-year-old right of return for Palestinians who were never a nation than a 2000-year-old right of return for Israelis who were a nation for centuries.

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 23/07/2014 at 03:08:22 AM
Reply to message
Those morons in Gaza (i.e., Hamas) are at it again - - 18/07/2014 04:02:57 PM 1097 Views
If by awesome you mean execrable, then yes, you're right. - 18/07/2014 11:45:53 PM 602 Views
Sounds like someone doesn't like jews! - 19/07/2014 04:24:41 AM 543 Views
It's funny you should say that. - 19/07/2014 09:36:57 AM 616 Views
your criticism would be better applied to Palestine supporters - 19/07/2014 11:50:37 AM 522 Views
My criticism IS also applied to Palestine supporters. It's not an either/or deal. - 19/07/2014 09:03:51 PM 546 Views
Agreed on that much, certainly. - 23/07/2014 03:05:22 AM 671 Views
Well, look who's back in the game! - 23/07/2014 07:44:45 PM 767 Views
Haltingly.... - 07/08/2014 03:41:06 AM 598 Views
The only good thing about ancient interminable wars is that--more-- - 13/06/2015 11:40:48 PM 452 Views
Oh lord. - 22/06/2015 10:08:22 PM 525 Views
"'Dialing for Dollars' is looking for me" - 24/06/2015 04:48:51 AM 593 Views
At the risk of prompting another long ramble, I've no idea what that reference is to. - 24/06/2015 10:39:42 PM 486 Views
"Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz?!" - 26/06/2015 12:41:48 PM 456 Views
I'm going to try to shorten and summarize this a bit... - 28/06/2015 11:21:28 PM 799 Views
I couldn't help but overhear... - 19/07/2014 01:13:01 PM 596 Views
Good, I was hoping you'd drop by! - 19/07/2014 08:33:44 PM 705 Views
I strongly beg to differ with your position re: Hamas - 26/07/2014 04:25:54 PM 470 Views
Sorry, I don't see that. - 26/07/2014 08:57:08 PM 554 Views
I guess if you believe the lies of Hamas your position makes sense. - 27/07/2014 03:20:03 PM 500 Views
+1 - 27/07/2014 04:00:05 PM 575 Views
I certainly don't believe everything they say, no. - 27/07/2014 06:43:51 PM 584 Views
the carrot and stick is somewhat apt, although israel should have given way more carrots to date - 22/07/2014 08:57:13 PM 602 Views
So Israel should back the least radical Palestinian faction & construct Palestinian infrastructure? - 23/07/2014 04:51:19 AM 564 Views
yes - 23/07/2014 05:04:58 PM 725 Views
I pretty much agree with everything you said. - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM 684 Views
Why do you hate America? - 23/07/2014 02:29:24 AM 572 Views
Bottom line - stop lobbing missles into Israel and the problem is solved. - 28/07/2014 03:35:46 AM 490 Views
It's a circle of violence. Both sides are the villian. - 31/07/2014 03:50:52 AM 601 Views

Reply to Message