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Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2010 07:49:27 AM
It forces them to treat same-sex unions as existent, just like heterosexual marriages, and that's it.
And how is that different from what I described? Since they do not actually exist, a law like this forces people to grant privileges to a novelty institution.


Existence and legitimacy are separate characteristics. Human beings have the mental capacity to make their own judgments of legitimacy, regardless of what the law says.

Many of the devout religious view any "civil" marriage, i.e. a union that was not sanctified by a church, as illegitimate, but that's their religious preference and not something they get to legislate via the government.
So? That's a normal & commonly accepted practice. Same-sex marriage is both pointless and groundless. It has no history of long use or genuine place in society. It is a special privilege invented for the benefit of the few, and attempts to legally ratify it are attempts to force every one to conform to their view. It is no different than attempting to govern according to the Bible.


I'm not talking about social norms (or what you consider to be social norms), I'm talking about legislation and government. These are not synonymous, nor even close to it.

Your appeals to history, usefulness, place in society, etc. are all hallmarks of conventional moral reasoning. Treating social institutions as ends unto themselves, rather than human constructs able to be changed and improved, is fallacious. The same arguments you make could be applied to inter-racial and inter-faith marriages as well, and in fact were until fairly recently, historically speaking.

The only reason you view gay marriage as a "special privilege" is because your concept of marriage is limited. You think of it as an institution uniting, specifically, a man and a woman, ideally to have children, raise a family, and perpetuate existing societal norms. The principled stance on marriage, in contrast to the conventional one, is that it is the legal joining of two people who are committed to each other. (In my opinion, even the restriction of "two" can be questioned.)

Legislation and government, at least in a principled democracy as America is supposed to have, isn't about reinforcing social norms; it's about providing citizens with equal rights and protections, and allowing them equal voices to shape their communities.

As far as "the benefit of the few": in what objectionable way do you believe that legalizing gay marriage would actually privilege the minority group of homosexuals above the rest of the country? What special advantages would they gain that others lack? I just don't see it.

Also, your attempt to justify governing with religious preference through free-market rhetoric is just pathetic.
Your utter lack of any answer to that is worse. What religious preference was I suggesting? I am one of those people who view civil marriage as irrelevant and meaningless. I am not attempting to impose my views on anyone. If people want to claim they are married because they have a piece of paper, that is fine with me. On the other hand, same-sex marriage legislation would force other people to accept their position. THEY are the ones governing with their preference.

You have no real principle to back your position, it is simply your ox that is being gored, so that determines what side you are one.


You may view civil marriage as irrelevant and meaningless, but if you owned a business you would still have to give your employees' civilly-married spouses health insurance. That's "forcing" you to acknowledge their marriage just as much as legalized gay marriage would be.

The religious preference you suggest is discrimination based on sexual orientation, which has almost exclusively religious roots.

For once, I read a response before duplicating it (I had to make sure that penultimate paragraph was there, because it makes everything he said after, "You are not wrong about your distinction between civil & religious weddings" irrelevant. ) Churches don't have to sanction civil marriages (many don't) but an employer creating a distinction between civil and religious marriages that doesn't exist in law (ultimately, religious marriage itself doesn't exist in US law, can't) is begging for a murderous discrimination suit. Whatever the spouses orientation.
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This message last edited by Joel on 18/01/2010 at 07:50:05 AM
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I may have lost a friend over same sex marriage - 17/01/2010 08:03:26 AM 1508 Views
the problem with your friend is the "southern evangelical christian" part - 17/01/2010 09:07:02 AM 817 Views
They believe gay marriage is ongoing unrepentant sin. - 17/01/2010 12:04:58 PM 815 Views
God your a moron. - 17/01/2010 09:10:17 PM 767 Views
be nice - 18/01/2010 06:26:58 AM 673 Views
<shrug> They can believe that all that they like - 18/01/2010 08:07:28 PM 723 Views
And live accordingly. Just like everyone else. - 18/01/2010 11:10:51 PM 729 Views
Re: And live accordingly. Just like everyone else. - 20/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 683 Views
It is, I believe, hardest for the intelligent educated man. - 21/01/2010 10:29:39 AM 828 Views
You can't use logic in an irrational argument. - 17/01/2010 10:12:11 AM 714 Views
LOL... *NM* - 18/01/2010 05:21:14 AM 391 Views
You and Adam are being equally unconstructive. - 18/01/2010 06:21:45 AM 629 Views
why do you imply "constructive" is in anyway the intent? *NM* - 18/01/2010 06:32:27 AM 308 Views
*shrug* I never stopped believing in lost causes? - 18/01/2010 07:36:04 AM 633 Views
Re: You can't use logic in an irrational argument. - 18/01/2010 06:28:41 AM 768 Views
Always welcome. - 18/01/2010 07:31:27 AM 878 Views
We finally converted you - 17/01/2010 08:43:25 PM 652 Views
Not much of a friend then. Good ridance to bad friends. *NM* - 17/01/2010 08:51:02 PM 449 Views
I agree. A friend who can't respect differences of opinion is no friend at all. *NM* - 17/01/2010 09:11:33 PM 312 Views
seriously. *NM* - 17/01/2010 10:46:17 PM 267 Views
Only because such sentiment is my pet peeve...condemning exclusivity is hypocritical. *NM* - 19/01/2010 12:37:37 AM 338 Views
yeah no kidding - 18/01/2010 06:30:45 AM 639 Views
It forces other people to accept THEIR ideology that same sex unions are legitimate. - 18/01/2010 01:49:20 AM 816 Views
I would assume, then, that you don't support any government-mandated health care? - 18/01/2010 02:07:40 AM 632 Views
Correct - 18/01/2010 04:29:04 AM 715 Views
Although I disagree with the vast majority of your arguments, - 18/01/2010 08:50:09 AM 708 Views
Thank you. - 20/01/2010 01:47:34 AM 863 Views
Please tell me you have a source for that quotation. Other than me. - 21/01/2010 12:31:27 PM 728 Views
It's GK Chesterton! What the hell are you going on about? - 27/01/2010 02:41:00 AM 603 Views
Link? - 27/01/2010 09:28:22 AM 699 Views
I can't find a link to the exact quote - 27/01/2010 12:14:19 PM 810 Views
Re: Link? - 27/01/2010 01:38:36 PM 832 Views
Perhaps we should define our terms more precisely. - 15/02/2010 11:28:09 AM 1202 Views
we do not exist in a free market. - 18/01/2010 04:09:37 AM 643 Views
And that's bad. Since when has the correct response to oppression been "accept further oppression"? *NM* - 18/01/2010 04:30:44 AM 315 Views
I am simply pointing out your arguments do not apply to the present economic environment. - 18/01/2010 04:46:04 AM 592 Views
No I am not. - 19/01/2010 10:44:31 PM 722 Views
That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 04:19:57 AM 673 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 04:41:27 AM 691 Views
civil marriages DO have a purpose. - 18/01/2010 04:49:12 AM 670 Views
Re: civil marriages DO have a purpose. - 19/01/2010 10:47:18 PM 731 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 07:13:54 AM 674 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 19/01/2010 10:59:45 PM 639 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 07:15:50 AM 782 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. - 18/01/2010 07:49:27 AM 669 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 20/01/2010 01:38:37 AM 561 Views
Are you at all surprised? - 18/01/2010 07:59:30 AM 662 Views
A truly free country means I don't have the freedom to shoot you - 18/01/2010 05:57:44 AM 761 Views
You really said nothing, right there. - 18/01/2010 08:34:33 AM 709 Views
I presume you are equally against the current set up - 18/01/2010 12:31:33 PM 746 Views
He said as much in his response to me above. *NM* - 18/01/2010 09:37:49 PM 255 Views
That's such an amusing argument - 18/01/2010 08:17:15 PM 623 Views
I'm against people with pasta based nicknames on fantasy forums *NM* - 19/01/2010 03:03:31 PM 276 Views
cannoli is a pastry *NM* - 19/01/2010 07:25:04 PM 252 Views
I have no problem with people with pastry based names, just pasta - 21/01/2010 12:28:44 AM 602 Views
I can't help but find it funny - 18/01/2010 12:51:57 PM 612 Views
So... - 18/01/2010 03:39:33 PM 752 Views
I think you missed who was the one to walk out - 18/01/2010 04:11:05 PM 636 Views
you acept your friends with their warts or you don't - 18/01/2010 06:45:13 PM 740 Views
I think you missed who was the one to walk out *NM* - 18/01/2010 08:01:25 PM 233 Views
I don't think it was that clear - 18/01/2010 10:01:32 PM 665 Views
I don't think it is all that clear yet, either - 18/01/2010 10:27:54 PM 694 Views
I wasn't taking sides - 18/01/2010 10:57:39 PM 571 Views

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