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Re: As long as I get top billing. Joel Send a noteboard - 04/04/2010 01:33:27 PM
Their fans actually treat them as reliable sources though (which they complicate by actually including facts from time to time and then tainting them with contortions; it sucks when Michael Moore raises a decent point first, because it becomes worse than useless for anyone else. ) It's the worst form of populist demagoguery, and if it hasn't yet reached the level of a Beer Hall Putsch or Bolshevik Revolution, we may thank God for it, but the day ain't over yet. (8 They add NOTHING to the political equation, and subtract a great deal. Heaven forbid someone get the base outraged about something legitimately outrageous. :rolleyes: Those kinds of sensationalist tactics may motivate the choir, but few choirboys need motivation to show up on Sunday, and the rest of us get the idea that if that's the "best" argument they have, maybe they don't have any argument at all.

Well, the choir often needs perked up after defeats, or given a little emotionally boost to stay in the fight. I do not know how inaccurate Moore is, but Coulter as I said tends to stick to the facts and I actually view many of her comments as logical, if rather emotionally driven or slanted, takes on real facts. I refer to her books, as I said, her interviews and articles are not detailed and so like anyone else doing quick soundbites they are high on emotional short arguments. I would not be surprised if Moore did somewhat similiar, though my impression is his movies are real heart-grabbers not heavily fact based as most conservative authors tend to be in their actual books, and likely liberal authors too. Choice of medium controls level of detail and preferred method of argument. I throw no stones on that level./quote>
To be fair, I've only seen Bowling for Columbine, but from what I hear it's representative. There's a "fact seed, " as it were, to form a tangible foundation for whatever polemic he wants to launch at any given time.
Left wing "takeovers"? Since when were civil rights or environmentalism conservative issues?

No, I said left-wing takeover, not liberal or conservative, you well know that definitions of liberal and conservative and how closely tied either is to a given party vary a lot. Left and right are dem and GOP, currently lib and con are basically Dem and GOP, this has not always been the case and realistically most of the time the GOP existed it was the more liberal party. That changed after the civil rights movement, as you well know.
Indeed I do, and as I say, that was less a takeover by the left than abandonment by the right. Which is true of a great deal; by the time Reconstruction ended the Republicans were well on the way to being the conservative and Democrats the liberal party. The only real exceptions there was segregation, but the Corrupt Bargain of 1876 made it an issue on which both parties were in fairly solid agreement. There were individual exceptions among Republicans from time to time, but for the most part both parties left it alone; meanwhile Democrats embraced things like the Grange, Free Silver, labor, suffrage etc. and Republicans generally watched mutely or resisted. The one exception is a debatable one; Prohibition was "liberal" in the sense of being a change from the norm, but not really more liberating; on the other hand, Dems ran hot and cold on that one (Al Smith and FDR, for example. )
I still think whatever he says gets him in trouble; he's either too emotional for the high stress Presidency if he lashes out or too cold and unfeeling if he keeps his cool. It's wrong to personalize an issue like that; asking about the death penalty for rapists/murderers is one thing, but it's wrong to conjure the image of someones brutalized and murdered spouse just to see their reaction.

As I said, I thought both questions were wrong, asking someone in that way about their VP nominee was also tasteless, though not as bad, and Bush, IMHO, handled it well, by directly confronting it and syncing to the audience while doing so. I believe Dukakis could have dealt with the issue, but not as effectively, after all, most people, especially then, support capital punishment, and as he did not, they would be less likely to accept his response. But he runs on the issues, and most disagree with him there, the question merely highlighted the difference in opinion and why those who disagree on that have reason to consider it important. Voters who support capital punishment, on hearing that the man would not even permit it for his wife's rapist/murderer, could legitimately assume he would commute the sentence on their own wife's rapist and murder. The phrasing was in poor taste, but the core point was not. The phrasing evoked a strong emotional response on the issue, which is usually inappropriate in formal debates, but is of course a normal and acceptable practice in law, TV political shows, etc. He should have been better prepared to answer that question, if nothing else, it shows he'd not really prepared to give a committed, logical and passionate defense of it. Which while not a necessity in a president, is certainly a plus.

For good or ill, I think he was committed to being dispassionate, which may have hurt him as much generally as it did in this instance. Remember, up until the days of Clinton and Obama Democrats had distressing tendency to come of as wonkish, and thought a firm grasp of policy should make having the charisma of a damp sponge irrelevant. Unfortunately politics remains, in a very real sense, a popularity contest, so charisma is indispensable; were that not the case Nixon would've mopped the floor with JFK whether I like it or not.
Part of civil disobedience is knowingly breaking the law and taking your lumps when you do; often a very accurate gauge of how much a law needs reform is the willingness to do that. Jim Crow was bad enough people were willing to face attack dogs and water cannons to get it reversed; abortion protesters are willing to go to jail to save the lives of the unborn.

Agreed, however many these days think they shouldn't have to risk those lumps, and circus acts don't belong in court. Why was Dukakis getting that question bad because it wasn't dignified but far worse indignities perpetrated for other causes are acceptable? Simply because one you approve of and the other you don't?

No, because the courts are the proper place to handle criminal acts. Part of civil disobedience, almost invariably, is deliberately breaking a law because enforcing it will demonstrate its absurdity. If you think a given criminal act shouldn't be criminal it's natural to advocate it be committed openly, and just as natural to expect prosecution in a court of law. If prosecuting a criminal act makes the law look stupid, whose fault is that?
Yeah, and guess which one of the three has more national momentum? Cap and trade was declared BEFORE arrival; a salt ban/tax isn't even on the table, nor likely to be. Meanwhile, efforts to ban late term abortions already banned by federal law and reinforce DoMA by making it a Constitutional amendment continue apace.

I'm assuming you meant cap and trade was 'declared dead before arrival' - and the salt ban IIRC just went into effect in NYC. I never believed it would be illegal to smoke outdoors either, I seem to remember people pointing out the slippery slope on those laws when the subject first hit prominence in the 90s and them being laughed off, doesn't seem so funny now, at the time banning smoking in restaurants seemed insanely unlikely too, now most states ban it in a disgusting violation of rights.

Local autonomy often means some very stupid things can be enacted on a local level with a relatively small number of people supporting them. Put another way, in small areas with (relatively) small populations it's easier for a fringe movement to gain a majority, but the left isn't threatening anything like that on a national level. The fringe right very much is, and has been for some time.
The evidence nicely supports my statement that no industrialized nation can let the market alone set the price of essential goods and services. That's why most are regulated in most such countries (American health insurance being a glaring exception) and we have things like Section Eight housing and AFDC, not to mention various charitable programs that are hardly market driven even if they aren't necessarily government run or funded. There's WIC, there's SCHIP; there's a plethora of government regulation and even government provided goods and services, and they weren't created just to give government employees something to do, but because of real need. You concede that on the heels of saying the evidence doesn't support my contention that the market alone can't be allowed to set prices in an industrialized nation. What we're debating isn't whether government should play a role, but what and how large that role should be. Which is the proper debate, I grant, not whether we should get "big government" out of our lives completely. There are a lot of people in prison who'd agree fervently, but I'm not convinced that makes abolishing government the proper basis OF government.

There is no debate here on the government - and in a democracy the collective will - having the right to step in on free markets and say "No, bad dog, you can't cartel and raise the price of milk to ten bucks a gallon", however on the scale of gov't control, the right and left disagree about level and degree, as we both know. I do not think the gov't should be able to step in unless the abuse is clear, and I think there are far fewer abuses than the left leads people to believe. Mostly however, I do not believe that once justification exists, that the action the gov't takes is necessarily good action, IMHO it usually is not, or is barely more good than ill, and is politics driven as opposed to pragmatic and thus unlike the free market where most things are self-correcting actions by the government are often not really designed to address the problem but to be seen to address the problem.

Most people have forgotten how bad the abuses got before government regulation and reform was instituted; people don't pay tribute to Wilson for ending child labor today, but the truth is both he and TR were instrumental in doing so. So it's something of a red herring to say garment industry workers aren't locked into factories that will kill them all if a fire breaks out; it's true, but only because when that ACTUALLY HAPPENED laws were passed to prevent it. There are far fewer abuses NOW because the left agitated for their reform THEN. The suggestion by some (and I'm not pointing a finger at you here) that those abuses were made up out of whole cloth and the reforms should thus be removed makes some of us very nervous because we know better. Obviously there's a limit to how much government regulation is needed, and that's a lot of why I'm a socialist rather than a full blown communist (another large part of the reason is that I don't trust anyone, state or private entity, with complete control. ) Again, what we're debating is where to strike the balance, but in doing so we're talking about some form of socialism rather than pure capitalism OR communism.
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If you could ban some words from political discourse, which would you ban? - 13/03/2010 06:35:25 AM 1313 Views
Working Families, Red Hot Go, Silver Bullet - 13/03/2010 06:46:43 AM 537 Views
I'm not sure if you're against labels or just Bob Seger. *NM* - 13/03/2010 05:15:20 PM 282 Views
well, anything to do with the other side. - 13/03/2010 03:41:12 PM 522 Views
Especially concerning their youth and inexperience *NM* - 14/03/2010 11:22:13 AM 306 Views
all of them. - 13/03/2010 04:42:02 PM 555 Views
I'm sure the one-fingered salute would turn up more frequently, then. - 14/03/2010 02:31:34 PM 497 Views
nah, it would just require the radio people to be more creative - 14/03/2010 06:52:29 PM 586 Views
Two: Bipartisan and progressive. - 13/03/2010 05:14:36 PM 517 Views
"progressive" was created to get around the "liberal" label the right uses - 13/03/2010 06:00:40 PM 534 Views
Does the right really have the power to make a word dirty? - 13/03/2010 06:27:46 PM 549 Views
considering that "liberal" has taken the place of "communist" for "something bad" i'd say yes - 13/03/2010 07:07:21 PM 486 Views
There's a flawed premise in there though - 13/03/2010 10:43:58 PM 561 Views
Re: There's a flawed premise in there though - 14/03/2010 09:34:58 AM 598 Views
Re: There's a flawed premise in there though - 14/03/2010 02:56:45 PM 550 Views
If that's the case you should try to reclaim the word, not demonize it. - 15/03/2010 08:14:11 AM 609 Views
It probably will be down the road - 15/03/2010 04:59:58 PM 627 Views
Good...? - 15/03/2010 09:17:22 PM 673 Views
Re: Good...? - 15/03/2010 10:20:53 PM 699 Views
Re: Good...? - 29/03/2010 04:15:16 PM 603 Views
Joel and Isaac prepare to hijack another thread - 30/03/2010 01:15:40 AM 736 Views
As long as I get top billing. - 03/04/2010 11:54:38 AM 686 Views
Re: As long as I get top billing. - 03/04/2010 12:50:54 PM 635 Views
Re: As long as I get top billing. - 04/04/2010 01:33:27 PM 555 Views
Re: As long as I get top billing. - 04/04/2010 02:59:07 PM 684 Views
Re: As long as I get top billing. - 06/04/2010 03:18:15 AM 616 Views
Heh. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. *edit* - 14/03/2010 02:26:12 PM 488 Views
I know, but it's still a bad description. *NM* - 14/03/2010 05:14:26 PM 221 Views
Not CREATED for that purpose, just dusted off for it. - 15/03/2010 07:34:19 AM 492 Views
I woulkd say the left made the word liberal dirty - 15/03/2010 05:15:24 PM 483 Views
it must be a terrible terrible burden on you to have all the answers to everything... *NM* - 15/03/2010 11:08:04 PM 321 Views
just as being stupid must be a burden for you *NM* - 16/03/2010 02:06:43 PM 243 Views
what? no sandy vagina comment? you're slipping.... *NM* - 16/03/2010 02:51:19 PM 275 Views
but you are still boringly predictable - 16/03/2010 03:23:26 PM 458 Views
actually, no it's just you. *NM* - 16/03/2010 11:12:21 PM 256 Views
How's that paranoia treating you? - 16/03/2010 12:53:31 AM 518 Views
how is that head in sand treating you? - 16/03/2010 02:19:54 PM 524 Views
Re: how is that head in sand treating you? - 16/03/2010 09:07:09 PM 671 Views
Which fringe group do you believe I belong to? - 16/03/2010 10:23:53 PM 425 Views
if all of this is true.... - 16/03/2010 11:17:19 PM 525 Views
I am a militant moderate - 18/03/2010 01:45:40 PM 466 Views
as always, i have to disagree - 18/03/2010 05:30:09 PM 519 Views
unlike the way you use right-winger? - 18/03/2010 06:50:12 PM 1139 Views
*NM* - 14/03/2010 02:25:01 PM 305 Views
Pro-torture *NM* - 13/03/2010 06:27:10 PM 407 Views
I get your point, but it wouldn't work anyway - 13/03/2010 07:20:58 PM 550 Views
transparency - because english politics fricking isn't. *NM* - 13/03/2010 10:11:59 PM 222 Views
none are these days - 13/03/2010 10:23:03 PM 690 Views
hope and change *NM* - 14/03/2010 03:32:34 PM 391 Views
i hope you could change your mind about that *NM* - 14/03/2010 07:35:39 PM 239 Views
bah. - 15/03/2010 12:24:51 AM 740 Views
None, - 15/03/2010 11:08:11 AM 578 Views
Words/phrases that I would abolish: - 15/03/2010 02:41:51 PM 647 Views
Bah. - 15/03/2010 03:05:20 PM 576 Views
Re: Bah. - 15/03/2010 03:11:47 PM 563 Views
Save the puns for damookster! - 15/03/2010 03:15:24 PM 562 Views
ROFL *NM* - 15/03/2010 03:17:07 PM 293 Views
XD *NM* - 15/03/2010 05:51:13 PM 319 Views
Re: Words/phrases that I would abolish: - 15/03/2010 04:27:21 PM 628 Views
Re: Words/phrases that I would abolish: - 15/03/2010 04:48:48 PM 582 Views
Re: Words/phrases that I would abolish: - 15/03/2010 05:32:30 PM 630 Views
I thought we settled that issue long ago here (well, wotmania) - 15/03/2010 04:48:02 PM 469 Views
hahaha *NM* - 15/03/2010 04:50:29 PM 236 Views
leave to a liberal to want to ban words they don't like *NM* - 15/03/2010 05:10:19 PM 263 Views
Re: leave to a liberal to want to ban words they don't like - 15/03/2010 05:38:24 PM 502 Views
That was weak - 15/03/2010 05:48:34 PM 491 Views
at least it mirrored your original comment. *NM* - 15/03/2010 05:53:34 PM 285 Views
to bad it didn't mirror reality - 15/03/2010 08:33:18 PM 448 Views
sure, the right doesn't say "don't say that" - 15/03/2010 11:00:56 PM 465 Views
which terms that the left uses did he suggest removing? - 16/03/2010 03:20:21 PM 521 Views
you misspoke - 16/03/2010 12:36:23 AM 586 Views
that is often true but I don't think it is true now - 16/03/2010 04:12:18 PM 637 Views
Re: that is often true but I don't think it is true now - 16/03/2010 09:34:42 PM 680 Views
Al Franken is a joke right? - 16/03/2010 10:31:41 PM 487 Views
Re: Al Franken is a joke right? - 17/03/2010 05:34:25 PM 530 Views
Getting a bit excessive - 17/03/2010 05:49:42 PM 485 Views
Hear, hear. *NM* - 18/03/2010 03:30:33 AM 232 Views

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