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It wouldn't have been as sudden or extreme. Joel Send a noteboard - 07/04/2010 01:58:39 AM

As does Constantinople not falling, which was my first choice in light of our discussion above, but the flip side is that without it there's no Renaissance and modern Western culture as we know it would not exist. Ironically, Muslim territorial expansion during the Golden Age of the caliphates set the stage for Western supremacy when the Mid-East became insular.

The part about the Renaissance not happening without the fall of Constantinople, that is. Certainly, Byzantine refugees helped speed things along, but I don't think you can say it wouldn't have happened without them.

I think it had less to do with refugees than the Fourth Crusade sacking Constantinople before they left (giving the lie to the suggestion it was still a religious rather than political war, if that had ever been true. ) Maybe the walls fall to the worlds first cannon without it (probably, in fact) but the Fourth Crusade left the city vulnerable and exhausted, and the European armies carried back untold treasures on Venetian ships that seem to have been there largely for that purpose from the start. A wealth (in every sense) of art and learning was carried back to Medieval Europe from the dying city. I tend to view the Fourth Crusade like Aeneas carrying Anchises from Troy to Italy--if he'd burned the place himself first. :P
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I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 12:44:15 AM 832 Views
Myself: World War I. - 07/04/2010 12:45:57 AM 694 Views
I don't think it's that simple. - 07/04/2010 12:57:16 AM 652 Views
I see your point. - 07/04/2010 01:02:33 AM 641 Views
Sometimes sooner is better than later. - 07/04/2010 01:10:11 AM 618 Views
True. - 07/04/2010 01:14:45 AM 596 Views
True, one might even say *adding* a war there would've improved things. - 07/04/2010 01:36:07 AM 596 Views
*nods* A small war is usually preferable to a big war. - 07/04/2010 01:49:06 AM 606 Views
The Plague - 07/04/2010 12:52:33 AM 584 Views
Re: The Plague - 07/04/2010 01:05:35 AM 479 Views
Maybe; there were episodic plague epidemics before and after that time. - 07/04/2010 02:05:18 AM 633 Views
I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 02:50:25 AM 575 Views
Re: I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 08:45:26 PM 571 Views
I'm so glad you have the time and inclination to type up these replies. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:09:22 AM 371 Views
...? - 08/04/2010 07:51:14 PM 493 Views
Sounds like he was thanking you for saving him the effort of writing a similar reply. *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:28:55 PM 393 Views
If that is the case, then great *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:30:51 PM 344 Views
The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 12:55:29 AM 662 Views
Huh. Wild to think about. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:06:44 AM 377 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 08:47:06 PM 472 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 08/04/2010 09:29:17 AM 492 Views
Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:40:47 PM 579 Views
Re: Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:42:25 PM 416 Views
But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? *NM* - 08/04/2010 01:41:34 PM 439 Views
Re: But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? - 08/04/2010 01:44:36 PM 628 Views
precisely. - 08/04/2010 05:37:26 PM 607 Views
sorry, didn't see that Lorraine already addressed this. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:55:00 PM 375 Views
The Partition of India, 1947... *NM* - 07/04/2010 12:59:32 AM 372 Views
Any paticular reason why? *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:34:54 AM 370 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:59:02 AM 490 Views
The destruction of the Great Library. - 07/04/2010 01:02:59 AM 549 Views
Internet spam sucks indeed. - 07/04/2010 01:08:23 AM 657 Views
We'll never know; makes for fascinating speculative fiction. - 07/04/2010 01:13:49 AM 606 Views
This whole topic is wild, it's something I sometimes think about. - 07/04/2010 01:17:50 AM 582 Views
Ya, that's what makes history so gripping. - 07/04/2010 01:19:54 AM 684 Views
I don't know if that's really true... - 07/04/2010 01:39:51 AM 597 Views
It wouldn't have been as sudden or extreme. - 07/04/2010 01:58:39 AM 636 Views
"Joel captures Alexandria! The Great Library is destroyed!" *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:08:35 AM 244 Views
NOOOO1111 - 07/04/2010 01:11:33 AM 513 Views
A shame. It's one of the better ones, too. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:14:20 AM 372 Views
Not in the first two Civs. - 07/04/2010 01:22:43 AM 444 Views
Civ, i love that game... - 07/04/2010 03:01:13 AM 556 Views
Yeah that's one of the small annoying things - 07/04/2010 07:34:52 AM 438 Views
An interesting point - 07/04/2010 02:57:03 AM 604 Views
That's usually my reply to this question too *NM* - 07/04/2010 11:42:55 AM 345 Views
if the giant meteor hadn't destroyed the dinosaurs... - 07/04/2010 01:10:42 AM 512 Views
"FOR" global warming? Now there's a phrase I never thought I'd here! - 07/04/2010 01:16:04 AM 436 Views
The spread of Islam - 07/04/2010 01:26:11 AM 613 Views
oh aren't you clever. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:47:13 AM 355 Views
There's such a thing as being right for the wrong reasons, though I'm not sure he is. - 07/04/2010 02:12:14 AM 422 Views
Wikipedia is of course not a scholarly source, but all the same... - 07/04/2010 11:57:01 AM 579 Views
Fair enough. - 07/04/2010 12:51:16 PM 574 Views
I read the Bernard Lewis article referred to at Wikipedia... - 07/04/2010 01:19:03 PM 559 Views
So it's borrowed propaganda. - 13/04/2010 09:30:39 AM 539 Views
Re: The spread of Islam - 08/04/2010 09:24:31 AM 649 Views
Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 07:59:39 PM 416 Views
Re: Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 08:50:33 PM 406 Views
Ask yourself the question... - 08/04/2010 09:33:33 PM 415 Views
I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:49:46 PM 603 Views
Re: I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:51:21 PM 460 Views
I'd better not touch this one - 07/04/2010 03:12:00 AM 629 Views
The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 04:30:37 AM 549 Views
Re: The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 07:31:02 AM 493 Views
I...do not know. - 07/04/2010 07:18:13 AM 483 Views
Amusing that the underlying expectation seems to be more along political history lines - 07/04/2010 12:56:49 PM 670 Views
Considering the way history is taught, is it surprising? *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:11:03 AM 333 Views
Nope, not really - 08/04/2010 10:24:54 AM 582 Views
Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 10:40:53 AM 425 Views
Yes - 08/04/2010 10:52:11 AM 560 Views
Re: Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 11:58:27 AM 452 Views
Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:11:14 PM 613 Views
Re: Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:15:20 PM 624 Views
The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:29:25 PM 581 Views
Re: The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:32:34 PM 372 Views
Not really - 08/04/2010 01:07:57 PM 539 Views
Re: Not really - 08/04/2010 01:10:16 PM 457 Views
Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:27:22 PM 549 Views
Re: Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:30:12 PM 664 Views
I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:38:24 PM 554 Views
Re: I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:41:31 PM 437 Views
Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:49:23 PM 590 Views
Re: Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:51:28 PM 419 Views
I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:13:20 PM 708 Views
Re: I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:19:07 PM 468 Views
- 08/04/2010 02:52:59 PM 556 Views
Interesting fact of the day for you two... - 08/04/2010 02:45:15 PM 455 Views
I know - 08/04/2010 02:46:41 PM 588 Views
It was nice being a "threadkiller" of a different sort - 08/04/2010 10:08:34 PM 460 Views
Quote Pyramids of Destiny FTL *NM* - 08/04/2010 10:16:21 PM 361 Views
me being born mega rich *NM* - 07/04/2010 02:15:34 PM 450 Views
Joanie Loves Chachi. - 07/04/2010 03:42:56 PM 511 Views
worse than "afterMASH"?? *NM* - 07/04/2010 03:50:10 PM 329 Views
Worse than "Joey" ? *NM* - 07/04/2010 06:48:25 PM 355 Views
If you remember Joanie loves Chachi, you might be too old? - 08/04/2010 12:00:34 AM 443 Views
Re: I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 09:04:02 PM 463 Views
Science getting on the ball in the 40's and making superhumans *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:31:34 AM 402 Views
The spread of peanut butter and jelly. - 08/04/2010 07:12:21 AM 601 Views
The Bread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:12:51 AM 592 Views
The dead of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:13:34 AM 580 Views
The thread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:14:15 AM 528 Views
The head of [Roman Catholic] Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:15:21 AM 563 Views
You completely missed the "pick 1" part of the question, didn't you? *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:26:23 AM 360 Views
Well, techinically, I never said that you couldn't make multible posts, each discussing 1 thing. *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:36:37 PM 332 Views
I'm fairly sure he was just mocking someone's earlier post "just thought it would be interesting..." *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:06:56 PM 335 Views
I'm pretty sure of that too. *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:33:46 PM 340 Views
...it's pretty interesting *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:35:47 PM 399 Views
just as you thought it would be? *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:44:49 PM 335 Views
My parody. - 08/04/2010 10:41:29 PM 541 Views
Re: My parody. - 09/04/2010 07:29:19 AM 618 Views
The 1987 Rugby World Cup Final - 13/04/2010 12:23:17 PM 621 Views

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