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Ha! Larry Send a noteboard - 08/04/2010 01:49:23 PM
What if black pepper had been an indigenous plant in Europe and/or the Middle East? Not only does that impact a small but important part of medieval trade - the most long-distance one - but it also is of crucial importance to the European discovery journeys of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, and hence to the entire concept of colonialism.


Or what if potatoes or tobacco had not been imported from South America.


Tobacco was from North America/the Caribbean, or at least the specific species that are smoked by most people :P

Of course, if tobacco was not a cash crop, my family would never have been wealthy in the early 19th century (nor would they have lost most everything between the Panic of 1837 and the Civil War :P)


Yesyes. Details. I come from Norway. Everywhere that is warm enough for tobacco growing is per definition SOUTH.

And, of course, part of the scenario would have to be that it were never grown by European immigrants either.


It's okay. I always think "up there" for any region where snow lies on the ground more than a handful of days a year, if that much. :P

And then there's that scenario if Songhai had not been weakened by invasions from the Sahara...


Now you are back on political history.


I consider the social vacuum created by the collapse of a strong polity in the Sahel to be responsible in part for the atrocity known as the transatlantic slave trade. The social upheaval that was unleashed is something that certainly affects hundreds of millions directly and almost as many indirectly today.

That being said, some of my vocabulary would have been different if this hadn't taken place.


But that is the case with most of the political events mentioned in this thread. The interest lies in the social ramifications. The collapse of a major African kingdom is definitely a political event.


Of course, I like to think my old studies, grounded firmly in the late Weimar/pre-WWII Nazi Era, were not political in nature, although that contradictory regime certainly loomed large over everything I was researching about religious programs during that time :P


I have always preferred political history. I think that is why I did not keep studying it. It became all about fishermen and farmers, and I couldn't care less. I like the wars and revolutions and the intrigues much more than the statistics and boring. In theory social history is good, but in practice it puts me to sleep.


While it draws upon some of the same methodologies as new social history, the areas of research are much more fascinating. Ever read Carlo Ginzburg's The Cheese and the Worms: The Cosmology of a 16th Century Miller? Still one of the best microhistories produced and it dealt with a relatively educated heretic who devised a cosmology that both fit in with his times and ran very counter to it. I had to read that in my freshman honors Western Civ class and that book convinced me that I was in the right field. Also, cultural histories yielded interesting discussions about English wife swaps and "sales," some of which lasted until the late 19th century. How can stuffy political maneuverings top that? :P


Oh, I don't mind cultural history when it centers on individuals, but because there is often so little to latch on to when it comes to illiterate farmers and fishermen (which Norwegian history has to deal with for most of its ... history), it all becomes numbers. And numbers do not work in my brain.

You should review that book properly and convince me to read it :P


I don't know if I still have my freshman paper on that book or not. I did keep most of my papers to use as guides of what to and what not to do in writing the next paper :P

Maybe when I'm done with cataloging my books next week, I'll re-read it and write a commentary. And you should look into the pardon requests that were penned for illiterate French peasants in the 16th and 17th centuries. Natalie Zemon Davis wrote a nice book on those.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 12:44:15 AM 829 Views
Myself: World War I. - 07/04/2010 12:45:57 AM 692 Views
I don't think it's that simple. - 07/04/2010 12:57:16 AM 649 Views
I see your point. - 07/04/2010 01:02:33 AM 638 Views
Sometimes sooner is better than later. - 07/04/2010 01:10:11 AM 615 Views
True. - 07/04/2010 01:14:45 AM 595 Views
True, one might even say *adding* a war there would've improved things. - 07/04/2010 01:36:07 AM 593 Views
*nods* A small war is usually preferable to a big war. - 07/04/2010 01:49:06 AM 601 Views
The Plague - 07/04/2010 12:52:33 AM 581 Views
Re: The Plague - 07/04/2010 01:05:35 AM 476 Views
Maybe; there were episodic plague epidemics before and after that time. - 07/04/2010 02:05:18 AM 631 Views
I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 02:50:25 AM 573 Views
Re: I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 08:45:26 PM 567 Views
I'm so glad you have the time and inclination to type up these replies. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:09:22 AM 369 Views
...? - 08/04/2010 07:51:14 PM 490 Views
Sounds like he was thanking you for saving him the effort of writing a similar reply. *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:28:55 PM 391 Views
If that is the case, then great *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:30:51 PM 343 Views
The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 12:55:29 AM 659 Views
Huh. Wild to think about. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:06:44 AM 375 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 08:47:06 PM 469 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 08/04/2010 09:29:17 AM 489 Views
Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:40:47 PM 577 Views
Re: Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:42:25 PM 412 Views
But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? *NM* - 08/04/2010 01:41:34 PM 438 Views
Re: But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? - 08/04/2010 01:44:36 PM 626 Views
precisely. - 08/04/2010 05:37:26 PM 604 Views
sorry, didn't see that Lorraine already addressed this. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:55:00 PM 374 Views
The Partition of India, 1947... *NM* - 07/04/2010 12:59:32 AM 371 Views
Any paticular reason why? *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:34:54 AM 369 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:59:02 AM 489 Views
The destruction of the Great Library. - 07/04/2010 01:02:59 AM 546 Views
Internet spam sucks indeed. - 07/04/2010 01:08:23 AM 655 Views
We'll never know; makes for fascinating speculative fiction. - 07/04/2010 01:13:49 AM 604 Views
This whole topic is wild, it's something I sometimes think about. - 07/04/2010 01:17:50 AM 580 Views
Ya, that's what makes history so gripping. - 07/04/2010 01:19:54 AM 681 Views
I don't know if that's really true... - 07/04/2010 01:39:51 AM 594 Views
It wouldn't have been as sudden or extreme. - 07/04/2010 01:58:39 AM 633 Views
"Joel captures Alexandria! The Great Library is destroyed!" *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:08:35 AM 243 Views
NOOOO1111 - 07/04/2010 01:11:33 AM 510 Views
A shame. It's one of the better ones, too. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:14:20 AM 372 Views
Not in the first two Civs. - 07/04/2010 01:22:43 AM 441 Views
Civ, i love that game... - 07/04/2010 03:01:13 AM 554 Views
Yeah that's one of the small annoying things - 07/04/2010 07:34:52 AM 435 Views
An interesting point - 07/04/2010 02:57:03 AM 602 Views
That's usually my reply to this question too *NM* - 07/04/2010 11:42:55 AM 344 Views
if the giant meteor hadn't destroyed the dinosaurs... - 07/04/2010 01:10:42 AM 509 Views
"FOR" global warming? Now there's a phrase I never thought I'd here! - 07/04/2010 01:16:04 AM 433 Views
The spread of Islam - 07/04/2010 01:26:11 AM 611 Views
oh aren't you clever. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:47:13 AM 354 Views
There's such a thing as being right for the wrong reasons, though I'm not sure he is. - 07/04/2010 02:12:14 AM 420 Views
Wikipedia is of course not a scholarly source, but all the same... - 07/04/2010 11:57:01 AM 577 Views
Fair enough. - 07/04/2010 12:51:16 PM 572 Views
I read the Bernard Lewis article referred to at Wikipedia... - 07/04/2010 01:19:03 PM 556 Views
So it's borrowed propaganda. - 13/04/2010 09:30:39 AM 538 Views
Re: The spread of Islam - 08/04/2010 09:24:31 AM 648 Views
Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 07:59:39 PM 413 Views
Re: Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 08:50:33 PM 402 Views
Ask yourself the question... - 08/04/2010 09:33:33 PM 413 Views
I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:49:46 PM 600 Views
Re: I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:51:21 PM 457 Views
I'd better not touch this one - 07/04/2010 03:12:00 AM 627 Views
The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 04:30:37 AM 546 Views
Re: The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 07:31:02 AM 490 Views
I...do not know. - 07/04/2010 07:18:13 AM 481 Views
Amusing that the underlying expectation seems to be more along political history lines - 07/04/2010 12:56:49 PM 667 Views
Considering the way history is taught, is it surprising? *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:11:03 AM 332 Views
Nope, not really - 08/04/2010 10:24:54 AM 579 Views
Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 10:40:53 AM 421 Views
Yes - 08/04/2010 10:52:11 AM 555 Views
Re: Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 11:58:27 AM 448 Views
Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:11:14 PM 609 Views
Re: Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:15:20 PM 622 Views
The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:29:25 PM 578 Views
Re: The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:32:34 PM 370 Views
Not really - 08/04/2010 01:07:57 PM 537 Views
Re: Not really - 08/04/2010 01:10:16 PM 454 Views
Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:27:22 PM 546 Views
Re: Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:30:12 PM 661 Views
I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:38:24 PM 552 Views
Re: I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:41:31 PM 434 Views
Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:49:23 PM 587 Views
Re: Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:51:28 PM 416 Views
I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:13:20 PM 705 Views
Re: I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:19:07 PM 466 Views
- 08/04/2010 02:52:59 PM 554 Views
Interesting fact of the day for you two... - 08/04/2010 02:45:15 PM 453 Views
I know - 08/04/2010 02:46:41 PM 586 Views
It was nice being a "threadkiller" of a different sort - 08/04/2010 10:08:34 PM 457 Views
Quote Pyramids of Destiny FTL *NM* - 08/04/2010 10:16:21 PM 359 Views
me being born mega rich *NM* - 07/04/2010 02:15:34 PM 448 Views
Joanie Loves Chachi. - 07/04/2010 03:42:56 PM 508 Views
worse than "afterMASH"?? *NM* - 07/04/2010 03:50:10 PM 327 Views
Worse than "Joey" ? *NM* - 07/04/2010 06:48:25 PM 354 Views
If you remember Joanie loves Chachi, you might be too old? - 08/04/2010 12:00:34 AM 440 Views
Re: I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 09:04:02 PM 460 Views
Science getting on the ball in the 40's and making superhumans *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:31:34 AM 402 Views
The spread of peanut butter and jelly. - 08/04/2010 07:12:21 AM 599 Views
The Bread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:12:51 AM 590 Views
The dead of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:13:34 AM 575 Views
The thread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:14:15 AM 526 Views
The head of [Roman Catholic] Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:15:21 AM 561 Views
You completely missed the "pick 1" part of the question, didn't you? *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:26:23 AM 360 Views
Well, techinically, I never said that you couldn't make multible posts, each discussing 1 thing. *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:36:37 PM 332 Views
I'm fairly sure he was just mocking someone's earlier post "just thought it would be interesting..." *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:06:56 PM 334 Views
I'm pretty sure of that too. *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:33:46 PM 339 Views
...it's pretty interesting *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:35:47 PM 398 Views
just as you thought it would be? *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:44:49 PM 334 Views
My parody. - 08/04/2010 10:41:29 PM 536 Views
Re: My parody. - 09/04/2010 07:29:19 AM 613 Views
The 1987 Rugby World Cup Final - 13/04/2010 12:23:17 PM 618 Views

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