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If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. Joel Send a noteboard - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM
I seem to disagree with every one of the opinions you've presented in this topic, so I kinda expected it :P.

I've always found that levels make more sense because it makes progression less overspecialised. Even if you're not focused on a specific facet of adventuring (or whatever activity the campaign/setting revolves around), you're still going to learn a bit just from doing it all the time. In pretty much any system, though, you're never going to be able to do it as well as someone who is specialised in it - which means that such skills are essentially pointless since games are intended to challenge the players and anything feasible by the less skilled characters would be ridiculously easy for the specialised character to accomplish. So in a point-based system, learning to do anything beyond your specialisation is a waste of points that could have been used on something worthwhile. Thus, hyper-specialised characters. And that makes no sense to me.

*shrugs* Picking up new skills in GURPS was always hideously expensive, and should be, because it is the difference between the autodidact learning on the fly and a youth intensively training, usually with a tutor. No, an active character will probably never be as good with a newly acquired skill as one that began with it, but in the real world a 40 year old who has never held a football will never be able to throw, catch or run with it as well as a 20 year old who has been playing since his Pop Warner days. By the time the older person has spent as much time on it as the younger one he will be pushing 60, and still not have invested that time when his brain was far more plastic and his muscles still growing into shape.

On the other hand, skills a character has at creation can be developed as much or as little as any other, though it does take longer because, once again, it is not being done intensively in a controlled environment with a tutor. One of the strengths of GURPS, IMHO, was that it discouraged over-specialization in anything except primary weapon skills (which I think we can agree characters in most campaigns will want to hone anyway.) I have made many (probably most) characters with dozens of skills, often investing a single point, or even half a point, because I knew I would need many of them, and spending even minimal points both avoided the costly penalty of having to use a default (which in a few cases, mostly technical skills, is not even an option) as well as allowing the opportunity to further improve them later. On the flip side, since defaults ARE available in most cases, skills seldom used could be safely ignored without making the character incompetent, particularly for characters with high scores in the DX and IQ on which all skills are based.

One of my friends has gotten really into the White Wolf system, and I've realised there's only one way to make characters for that: max out all the skills you can at creation, and leave the rest blank. Trying to design a balanced character will only lead to overall mediocrity.

I was rather averse to White Wolf from its debut with the Storyteller system, which minimized dice to the point of being a "rules optional" system. It presaged modern message board "roleplaying" where characters can do anything moderators permit. That sounds nice until one recalls the prevalance of munchkins and realizes that the absence of rules and dice produces players stating their characters picked up a Chevy and hit an opponent with it, forcing the GM to say, "No, you cannot do that, because your character 1) is NOT in a supers campaign and 2) IS in 13th Century France." So, yeah, I do not expect much from White Wolf, but consequently do not consider their institutional failures an indictment of other systems that happen to share some common features.

Say you start off an Exalted character with attributes scores of 3-3-3 in one category, it would take you 28 experience points to get to 5-3-3. But if you start off at 5-3-1, it will only take you 12 experience points to reach the same attributes. You could actually sacrifice two points and start off handicapped at 5-1-1 and it would still take you only 24 experience points.

The minimalist attributes in GURPS largely defeat that sort of thing; there is no such thing as a "dump stat," and even marginal attempts at finding them have hazardous consequences. All skills are based off IQ or DX, so characters need high scores in both, though fighters can get by with relatively low IQs (thieves cannot, because things like appraisal, streetwise and trap detection are based on IQ.) However, one cannot shirk ST, because most weapon damage is based on it (it is a little more negotiable in high tech campaigns where weapons are more than just levers for the wielders strength.) The only other stat is HT—but that is a characters hit points, so skimping on it is a REALLY bad idea, especially since it does not go up with experience (unless, as with all attributes, one is willing to pay double price to raise it, but with only a few character points per campaign and attributes starting at 10 points, then climbing quickly, that is seldom feasible.) That is one of the many things I like about GURPS: No matter how long and successfully you a play a character, a .45 slug to the temple will kill him just as effectively as on the day you created him.

So most characters increase DX as much as possible, unless they are mages, in which case they increase IQ as much as possible because spells are Mental Hard, or in some cases Very Hard skills, and grimoires are built with prerequisites. Though there are a couple ways to get to Fireball, both require, IIRC, learning four spells first; fortunately Shape Fire and Create Fire have obvious utility in themselves. Few of any type of character will have a ST more than 2 points below normal, and HT even 1 point below normal is uncommon; 2 points is unheard of, for obvious reasons.

Fighters and thieves still cannot afford to be complete morons, because Survival, Streetwise, Fasttalk, Appraisal etc. all default to IQ, and Will/Fright checks use IQ. Mages cannot afford to be completely clumsy, both because a few critical skills (most notably Spell Throwing for missile spells and Flame Jet for spray spells) are DX based, as are all weapon skills (GURPS mages can be quite competent with weapons, though the need to build up spells limits the points available for other skills.)

Classes are something else entirely, and many of my homebrewed mods do away with them. But levels are definitely my favourite mode of progression, of any I've used.

I prefer skills and character points, but done right; I think GURPS, at least in 3rd edition, did a pretty good job (I have not tried and cannot vouch for 4th edition.)

As for naked fighters slaughtering kobolds, I really can't say anything about that without a context. It could be awesome or it could be terrible, but if it's the latter, it's probably the DM's fault.

You surely know AD&D 2nd ed. rules well enough to know what I mean:

A 10th level fighter has 10d10 HP, so even without a Con bonus he has about 55HP on average, 10 THAC0 and is AC 10 naked (assuming no Dex bonus.)

Kobolds are 0.5 HD creatures, so a dozen have about 20 HP total, 20 THAC0 and are AC 7 (I will be generous and give them studded leather.)

The fighter will be specced at LEAST once in bow, so he gets 5/2 at 10th level; he will drop half the kobolds in the first two rounds unless he rolls a 1 for damage (if he melees with his sword he will be sweeping them and it will be equally bad.) In that time they should hit him for about 10d6 worth of damage, leaving him with 20 HP facing 7 kobolds. He wastes a couple more and they hit him for 10 HP; then he wastes three more and the last 5 hit him for 3d6. That might be enough to finally kill him; if not, his two attacks the next round will finish off the last of them.

If a single stark naked 10th level fighter faces a dozen kobolds he has about a 50/50 shot of killing them all. An average fighter would be more than slightly wounded, but that also unrealistically assumes he has no Con or Dex bonus; if he has even a 16 or 17 in either the kobolds' plight is hopeless unless they get perfect roles.

In GURPS, the fighter probably has no more than 13 HT, MAYBE 15 if he sold out on and dumped a hideous amount of points into it over years of real time. It does not matter, because the puny kobolds will swarm and shred him in the first round regardless, as they should. No naked person wins a 12 on 1 melee with weapons.

EDIT: Also, I hated Icewind Dale, so you'll probably love it :P. I would describe it as Diablo II with less story and using 2nd Edition AD&D's byzantine ruleset, both being things I thoroughly despise, but you probably love :P.

I tried playing it a few times, and every time I reach the part with the Fire Giants I realise I have no idea where I'm going or why, except forward because that's the only accessible area I haven't explored yet. That's pretty much where I stop playing.

I like AD&D 2nd ed. rules primarily for the nostalgia effect, and because I know them well enough to abuse the Hell out of them min/maxing characters (which I try to avoid in genuine roleplaying, but AD&D was always hack and slash, and so is PC gaming, so I play with that in mind.) I nothing about Diablo except that it is a computer game; like I say, I am not really much of a computer gamer. I mainly play games that I loved on tabletop (I downloaded a really nice online version of Axis & Allies a couple years ago) and Madden, though I suppose Civ I&II count as non-pen-and-paper inspired games if you believe Sid Meiers claims he never heard of the Avalon Hill game (which I do not.)
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This message last edited by Joel on 18/09/2012 at 07:40:49 AM
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Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay - 07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM 2541 Views
!!!!! - 07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM 1227 Views
are they created kindly or cruelly? - 08/09/2012 05:34:36 PM 1193 Views
Lol! Realistically, if exaggerated to heroic levels. - 09/09/2012 07:56:32 PM 1207 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once - 08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM 1324 Views
BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO. - 08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM 1214 Views
*revelation* - 08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM 1156 Views
fireballs are so epic in BG1 - 08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM 1205 Views
I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent - 08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM 1294 Views
Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt. - 08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM 1141 Views
it was such a liability - 08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM 1182 Views
Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once. - 08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM 1124 Views
There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins... - 09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM 1209 Views
Oops. - 09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM 1200 Views
that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards - 09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM 1183 Views
Yeah, got to keep one of each on hand. - 08/09/2012 08:57:31 PM 1096 Views
Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party. - 08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM 1172 Views
well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out - 08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM 1291 Views
Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice - 08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM 1296 Views
Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though? - 09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM 1246 Views
I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM 1362 Views
Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM 1208 Views
Agreed. - 11/09/2012 07:01:07 PM 1240 Views
Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway... - 15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM 1262 Views
That is a good thought; I never played IWD. - 16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM 1176 Views
Where did you think I just got it? - 16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM 1124 Views
How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM 1124 Views
Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM 1311 Views
I still like GURPS' character points best. - 17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM 1164 Views
Heh, I'm not surprised. - 18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM 1163 Views
If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM 1373 Views
I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works. - 18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM 1253 Views
I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM 1593 Views
Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM 1209 Views
It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM 1258 Views
Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM 1185 Views
AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM 1478 Views
Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM 1169 Views
Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM 1384 Views
Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM 1302 Views
My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM 1399 Views
Re: My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM 1403 Views
I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM 1212 Views
Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM 1333 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM 1355 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM 1217 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM 1830 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM 1157 Views
I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far. - 18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM 1124 Views
Nah, IWD I barely had any story at all. - 18/09/2012 08:16:49 PM 1054 Views
agreed - 19/09/2012 09:42:28 AM 1320 Views
I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1 - 08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM 1218 Views
If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods. - 08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM 1111 Views
But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs? - 08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM 1123 Views
agreed the NPCs are half the fun - 08/09/2012 07:02:22 PM 1156 Views
Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling. - 08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM 1244 Views
Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy. - 09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM 1131 Views
Well, there are always mods for that. - 09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM 1079 Views
For talking to pretty much anyone, really. - 09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM 1163 Views
True. - 09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM 1169 Views
Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party. - 09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM 1112 Views
there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB - 09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM 1072 Views
I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP. - 09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM 1186 Views
storyline man! - 10/09/2012 01:43:51 PM 1138 Views
I make my OWN storyline. - 10/09/2012 06:35:43 PM 1213 Views
Just how many thieves do you even need? - 10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM 1151 Views
The stealth skills come in very handy though. - 09/09/2012 04:11:40 PM 1153 Views
Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM* - 10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM 649 Views
I plan to do custom characters for the other 6 slots - 10/09/2012 01:42:41 AM 1121 Views
There are no "other" six slots - there are six slots, period. - 10/09/2012 06:24:33 PM 1098 Views
well, absolute standard would be: - 10/09/2012 01:35:15 PM 1191 Views
My own recommendation would be: - 10/09/2012 07:36:04 PM 1140 Views
I am completely stoked about it. - 10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM 1192 Views
TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun. - 10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM 1075 Views
all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee - 11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM 1110 Views
Ah; nice. - 11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM 1220 Views
i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time - 12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM 1121 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom. - 13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM 1183 Views
If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993. - 13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM 1157 Views
Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM* - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 661 Views
Can't believe I forgot about HALF-LIFE. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:06:55 PM 645 Views
That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM* - 13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM 639 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it - 12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM 1175 Views
Re: I don't mind the graphics in it - 13/09/2012 01:55:24 AM 1098 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related. - 10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM 1120 Views
I remember Wisdom being important - 14/09/2012 04:28:23 AM 1065 Views
And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM* - 15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM 637 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul - 15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM 1162 Views
Among many many others. - 17/09/2012 06:45:33 PM 1123 Views

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