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I did not realize how awful classes were until liberated from them. Joel Send a noteboard - 28/09/2012 12:49:14 AM
Well, the simple solution there is to just get rid of classes.... :whistle:

I wish. But 3rd Edition was built entirely around classes. It was the game's very core.

Once upon a time it seemed perfectly natural that mages should be forever doomed to a -6 penalty with anything but a staff, dagger, dart or sling, that thieves were physically incapable of drawing long bows, that priests would become catatonic if they tried to use anything with an edged, and that fighters alone could use ANY weapon. Because that is how life works: Anyone not formally trained to use weapons is incapable of using more than a handful; anyone WITH such training can use even the most uncommon weapons with only minor difficulty, if any. Only criminals know how to hide, find/disarm traps or even climb a wall without a rope.

Then I discovered there are systems with the revolutionary idea EVERYONE can learn how to do anything to which they devote time, study and practice. Now classes are almost as annoying as the HP thing and the level thing (and those are INCREDIBLY annoying.)

Fourth edition... honestly, it sounds like I would hate it, because all of the old AD&D munchkinizing tendencies are exacerbated by attempts to cater to console gamers looking for naught but XP and powerups.

Oh, I'm sure you'd hate it. So many people do. As Written, I do as well. I just love its core mechanics, but pretty much everything they build onto that is bland as all hell.

I did try it briefly playing rebelaessedais character when she was detained last time I visited her and her hubby. Like I say, I kept looking for the X and Y buttons and trying to figure out which combo attacks were most effective. As far as roleplaying, I do not even recall any in-character conversation, just out-of-character combat positioning and tactical planning.

For mechanics I will probably always like GURPS best because there IS a mechanic, and an eminently logical one, for virtually every imaginable situation. Obviously you have to balance verisimilitude against convenience, and sometimes it just fits the narrative better to say the armory is kept unlocked in case of sudden attack, or the king believes your one of his many soldiers checking his virgin daughters bedchamber because you heard a suspicious noise, without needing to check your Fast Talk against his IQ. Sometimes, however, you are leaping from your pterodactyl in flight and trying to land on then grapple your opponent on his, and something a little more complex than "roll a DX check at -4" is in order.

Oh, good; I was worried we were power-gaming. :P

Heh. But like I said, stat progression is far more linear in Editions past 2nd, so the difference between the 31 strength Fire Giant and an 18 Strength fighter is the same as that same fighter would have compared to a Strength 6 character.

The way all stats work in 3rd and 4th Edition is that they give you a +1 bonus to all checks related to that attribute for every two points you put into it. 10 is +0, 18 is +4, 31 is +10.

Linear, fine, but it sounds like just a longer path to the same destination. There are more "grades of suck" (and awesome, and grades in between) but you still end up with a cross between Conan, Mat and Elminster if you accomplish the great challenge of surviving long enough (admittedly quite a challenge in SOME campaigns. ;))

So mid level characters cannot ignore thrashings by high levels ones for a full minute; I guess that is some improvement. The core problem remains though: The mid level character can still absorb far more damage than a low level one; the high level character just inflicts such an overwhelming amount of damage it does no matter. Against anyone less, like the low level character or even an equal level character, we still have a scenario where even if the attacker is consistently hitting an opponent doing nothing more than trying to avoid the blows it will take a while to kill him.

Yeah, but that's fine. If he's doing nothing but trying to avoid blows, then he should be fairly successful against an opponent of a similar level.

Oh, actually if he's doing nothing but avoiding attacks, he should use the total defence action for a +4 to AC.

Yeah, but remember: The attacker is still hitting him DESPITE attempts to avoid the blows. Yeah, OK, he is focused on dodging, parrying, whatever: But it is not working; he is still getting whacked several times per round—and still is not dropping until whacked a ridiculous number of times. How "experienced" do you think you or I would have to be to survive getting hit five times with a broadsword, however nimble we are? Iraq vets are not THAT experienced; no one is.

I am not saying it should never be an option, can never make sense within any gameworld, but it should not be the norm for ALL gameworlds where characters survive long enough. And even if someone like Lan took an Aes Sedais fireball to the face or got hit with balefire he would be as dead as quickly as Baerlon drover.

Pretty sure balefire would be a save-or-die effect anyway :P.

Heh, fair enough, but the fireball would not, and Lan probably would not even need a system check if he were an AD&D character. Not unless he got fireballed in the face by someone like Moridin, and maybe not then; I do not know if it remains true in 3rd and 4th Ed., but in 2nd Ed. fireball was capped at 10d6 damage (cone of cold, OTOH, did 1d4+1/level indefinitely.... ;)) Average rolls, that is about 35 points, and Lan is probably at least 13th level, so he could shrug that off and keep right on coming. Of course, Moridin is probably the equivalent of an Arch Mage, so even Lan would probably need two or three rounds to slice him up even if he never missed.
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This message last edited by Joel on 28/09/2012 at 12:54:32 AM
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Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay - 07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM 2540 Views
!!!!! - 07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM 1227 Views
are they created kindly or cruelly? - 08/09/2012 05:34:36 PM 1193 Views
Lol! Realistically, if exaggerated to heroic levels. - 09/09/2012 07:56:32 PM 1207 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once - 08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM 1324 Views
BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO. - 08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM 1213 Views
*revelation* - 08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM 1155 Views
fireballs are so epic in BG1 - 08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM 1205 Views
I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent - 08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM 1294 Views
Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt. - 08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM 1141 Views
it was such a liability - 08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM 1182 Views
Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once. - 08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM 1124 Views
There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins... - 09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM 1209 Views
Oops. - 09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM 1200 Views
that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards - 09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM 1183 Views
Yeah, got to keep one of each on hand. - 08/09/2012 08:57:31 PM 1096 Views
Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party. - 08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM 1172 Views
well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out - 08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM 1291 Views
Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice - 08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM 1296 Views
Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though? - 09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM 1246 Views
I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM 1362 Views
Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM 1208 Views
Agreed. - 11/09/2012 07:01:07 PM 1240 Views
Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway... - 15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM 1262 Views
That is a good thought; I never played IWD. - 16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM 1176 Views
Where did you think I just got it? - 16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM 1124 Views
How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM 1123 Views
Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM 1311 Views
I still like GURPS' character points best. - 17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM 1164 Views
Heh, I'm not surprised. - 18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM 1163 Views
If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM 1372 Views
I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works. - 18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM 1253 Views
I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM 1592 Views
Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM 1209 Views
It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM 1258 Views
Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM 1185 Views
AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM 1478 Views
Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM 1169 Views
Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM 1384 Views
Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM 1301 Views
My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM 1399 Views
Re: My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM 1403 Views
I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM 1212 Views
Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM 1332 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM 1355 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM 1217 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM 1830 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM 1157 Views
I did not realize how awful classes were until liberated from them. - 28/09/2012 12:49:14 AM 1282 Views
I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far. - 18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM 1124 Views
Nah, IWD I barely had any story at all. - 18/09/2012 08:16:49 PM 1054 Views
agreed - 19/09/2012 09:42:28 AM 1320 Views
I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1 - 08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM 1218 Views
If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods. - 08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM 1111 Views
But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs? - 08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM 1123 Views
agreed the NPCs are half the fun - 08/09/2012 07:02:22 PM 1156 Views
Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling. - 08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM 1244 Views
Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy. - 09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM 1131 Views
Well, there are always mods for that. - 09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM 1079 Views
For talking to pretty much anyone, really. - 09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM 1163 Views
True. - 09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM 1169 Views
Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party. - 09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM 1112 Views
there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB - 09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM 1072 Views
I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP. - 09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM 1186 Views
storyline man! - 10/09/2012 01:43:51 PM 1138 Views
I make my OWN storyline. - 10/09/2012 06:35:43 PM 1213 Views
Just how many thieves do you even need? - 10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM 1150 Views
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Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM* - 10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM 649 Views
I plan to do custom characters for the other 6 slots - 10/09/2012 01:42:41 AM 1121 Views
There are no "other" six slots - there are six slots, period. - 10/09/2012 06:24:33 PM 1098 Views
well, absolute standard would be: - 10/09/2012 01:35:15 PM 1190 Views
My own recommendation would be: - 10/09/2012 07:36:04 PM 1140 Views
I am completely stoked about it. - 10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM 1192 Views
TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun. - 10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM 1075 Views
all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee - 11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM 1109 Views
Ah; nice. - 11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM 1220 Views
i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time - 12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM 1121 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom. - 13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM 1183 Views
If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993. - 13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM 1157 Views
Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM* - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 661 Views
Can't believe I forgot about HALF-LIFE. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:06:55 PM 644 Views
That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM* - 13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM 638 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it - 12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM 1175 Views
Re: I don't mind the graphics in it - 13/09/2012 01:55:24 AM 1098 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related. - 10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM 1120 Views
I remember Wisdom being important - 14/09/2012 04:28:23 AM 1065 Views
And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM* - 15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM 637 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul - 15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM 1162 Views
Among many many others. - 17/09/2012 06:45:33 PM 1123 Views

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