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I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. Joel Send a noteboard - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM
Actually, I haven't tried new rules systems in a while. We've gotten to the point where we're pretty much homebrewing anything we like on top of the skeletons of games we've already played. I'm working on a core of D&D 4th Edition, which has a very solid and simple ruleset (and very little else to offer, really) while my friend, as mentioned, has gotten a taste for White Wolf.

GURPS is pretty simple for players, except those who genuinely want to know every trivial detail and nuance of the rules (on the other hand, most of them love the level of complexity AVAILABLE, if optional, for them.) It taxes GMs though, because trying to cover all possible game worlds produced relatively complex rules and, while players need know nothing more than how to count up their skills, GMs must know most things, and quickly find then apply the rest on short notice.

It is still simple at its core: Every character has 100 points (though GMs can bump that up or down as they feel appropriate to the campaign; Supers characters tend to be in the 200-250 point range.) Those points may be spent on three basic things: Stats, Advantages and Skills. I typed out a relatively long overview of those before realizing most of it covered by the 4 page Instant Character sheet below linked.

Various situations require checks against one of the 4 stats, modified or otherwise. Each is made by rolling lower than the target on 3d6 (GURPS uses d6 exclusively, to avoid added expense from dice; EVERYONE has 3d6 lying around.) A 3, 4 or target-10 is always a critical success; 18 is always a crit fail, as is 17 for targets<16 (in which case a 17 is only a normal fail.)

ST covers what you would expect (encumbrance is a factor of ST in lbs., starting at 2XST for unencumbered.) It also covers fatigue, (mainly important for spells) and damage from melee and missile weapons. A friend once made a faun with 7 ST then yelled at ME when he realized it was almost impossible to do damage against light leather armor with a staff; as I said, dump stats are ill advised in GURPS. Surprisingly, ST is usually the closest GURPS comes to a dump stat.

DX covers all physical skills, which is the majority.

IQ covers all mental skills, which are the remaining, and a fair number in their own right. It also covers Will/Fright checks.

HT covers hit points; characters must make a stat check when HT<0 to stay conscious, to stay alive at -HT, and die automatically at -5XHT. At -10XHT there is not even enough to resurrect. Even if GURPS had a dump stat, this would not be it. :P (HT+DX)/4 is also Speed and Movement (the latter rounded down.)

Advantages are various traits conferring specific benefits for specific cost (e.g. Toughness provides pain immunity, Acute Vision/Hearing aids spot checks, Magical Aptitude gives spell casting abilities in three levels.) DISadvantages similarly inhibit characters, but provide more character points to spend elsewhere (and flavor.) Characters are limited on playability grounds to either 40 points in disadvantages, or a single disadvantage of any value. Additionally, up to 5 "quirks" worth -1 points each may be assigned before or after character creation.

Skills... this is where GURPS gets complicated, because they tried really hard to provide a skill for every contingency. An important note is that most common skills have "default" levels present with no training; many also default to other skills (e.g. Broad/Shortword are both Physical Average skills defaulting to DX-5, but also default to each other at -2.) Skills are either Physical (DX based) or Mental (IQ based,) in varying levels of difficulty (and thus cost.)

Spells are Mental Very Hard, but fortunately each of up to 3 Magical Aptitude levels is added to IQ to determine skill. Spells may be cast indefinitely, but cost fatigue each time, though high skill slightly reduces that. Ideally, spell casters want IQ 14+ and Magical Aptitude 3 (or equivalent combination) so a single point (the minimum for spells) raises skill to 15, where fatigue is reduced 1, and a 1d fireball (or equivalent) can be cast at no cost.

One wrinkle is that non-humans invariably cost points (and have unique dis/advantages.) Elves, for example, cost 40 points for the advantages DX+1, IQ+1, Unaging, Magical Aptitude 1 and Combat Reflexes, plus the disadvantages of ST-1, Sense of Duty to Nature and Code of Honor: "Always behave with style and elegance."

That is basically it, though it takes experience for GMs to become familiar with all the various Dis/Ads and Skills and when/how to apply them. The original GURPS 3rd ed. Basic Set was 256 pages long (though it included one solo and one group adventure in the back,) and the revised edition (which removed the group adventure) expanded that by 20 more. On the other hand, the linked Instant Characters PDF below is only 4 pages long (though it only lists the names and costs of dis/advantages and skills, without descriptions.) Character creation is usually fairly quick once you know what you are doing, because you have a good idea of where you want most of your points (DX and IQ) and the must fun/useful dis/advantages and skills.

The skill system discourages hyper-specialization, because raising multiple skills (especially physical) many times is invariably more expensive than just raising the stat on which they are based (and thus ALL skills based on it, present or future, along with all stat checks,) then spending only a few points on the skills. For example:

Say you have a character with 12 DX and want Broadsword-16, Riding (Horse)-16 and Bow-16, plus a couple points apiece in six other physical skills (e.g. Acrobatics, Fast Draw, Knife Throwing, Wrestling, Swimming and Sleight of Hand.)

Broadsword is an Physical Average, so raising it to DX+4 costs 24 points, and the same for Riding; Bow is Hard, so it costs 32, a total of 80. Alternatively, 10 points raises DX to 13 and suddenly it only costs 56 more to raise those three skills to 16 only costs 56 points, plus the six minor skills all go up a point, too! You can do that two more times before reaching marginal returns, and instead of a somewhat agile character with three 16 level skills and six others around 11 or 12, you have a VERY nimble character whose skills are all 14+, with three at 16—you even have an extra point to get an EXTRA skill at around 14. Only one skill cost as much as 8 point, only two others cost 4, and the rest got 1 or 2 each; how specialized is that?

That may seem long, but for an overview of an entire game system covering every campaign from Clan of the Cave Bear to Star Wars, it is not bad at all. ;)

You surely know AD&D 2nd ed. rules well enough to know what I mean:

A 10th level fighter has 10d10 HP, so even without a Con bonus he has about 55HP on average, 10 THAC0 and is AC 10 naked (assuming no Dex bonus.)

Kobolds are 0.5 HD creatures, so a dozen have about 20 HP total, 20 THAC0 and are AC 7 (I will be generous and give them studded leather.)

The fighter will be specced at LEAST once in bow, so he gets 5/2 at 10th level; he will drop half the kobolds in the first two rounds unless he rolls a 1 for damage (if he melees with his sword he will be sweeping them and it will be equally bad.) In that time they should hit him for about 10d6 worth of damage, leaving him with 20 HP facing 7 kobolds. He wastes a couple more and they hit him for 10 HP; then he wastes three more and the last 5 hit him for 3d6. That might be enough to finally kill him; if not, his two attacks the next round will finish off the last of them.

If a single stark naked 10th level fighter faces a dozen kobolds he has about a 50/50 shot of killing them all. An average fighter would be more than slightly wounded, but that also unrealistically assumes he has no Con or Dex bonus; if he has even a 16 or 17 in either the kobolds' plight is hopeless unless they get perfect roles.

Yes, but why is the fighter fighting kobolds? If this is supposed to be a challenge, then the kobolds should not be fighting as 1/2 HD creatures. In 2nd Edition, kobolds don't have Advancements to boost them up to par, so you'd probably have to redesign the whole thing yourself (for example, in Shadows of Amn Irenicus' dungeons, you get to fight goblins even though you're way overlevelled for what challenge goblins should offer, same goes for 'Kobold Commandos' in the Firewine ruins) but in 3rd Edition, you should probably be giving them Warrior class levels to bring them up to par, and in 4th Edition you'd be putting Kobold traits on an appropriate 10th level template (probably 'Minion', or maybe 'Artillery' or 'Skirmisher';). It's the Dungeon Master's responsibility to ensure that his challenges are challenging.

On the other hand, if the kobold encounter is designed to show how much more powerful the adventurers have grown since the last time they encountered kobolds, then the encounter as you describe it is perfectly fine.

That's why I said I couldn't judge without context.

See, but that is just it: Levels and other advantages should not matter for a naked fighter outnumbered 12 to 1. Max the Guard in the Basic Sets solo adventure is probably equivalent to at least 3rd level (50 point character in a world where PCs are heroic at 100 and 25 is average,) but a new average ST character swinging a broadsword has a good chance of removing half his HT if he hits (and Maxs loincloth provides no armor,) forcing a check against Maxs 12 HT to avoid stunning; if he fails, he probably drops next round.

If the shoe were on the other foot it would be all the same, even though the PC has twice his experience. Max has high ST, too (12 or 13 IIRC,) so his scimitar does at least 2d, enough to kill average characters outright on a good roll. Even an average roll forces a stun check for anyone who did not spend 100 points raising HT to a superhuman 17. Fortunately, most characters can raise Parry or Dodge fairly high even if they do not bother with a shield (helpful tip: Staves and fencing blades pary at 2/3 weapon skill; the rest parry at 1/2; buying Broadsword (or whatever) to 16 is actually worth it since your parry will only be an 8, though even minimal armor will add a point or two of Passive Defense, and absorb a point or two with Damage Resistance.)

Still, it is alarmingly easy for combat to kill even the very experienced in GURPS—and real life. Around Tech Level 5 (Industrial Age) the best you can say of GURPS combat is that hitting a limb cannot do more than HT/2 damage; strangely enough, that is about the time duels fell out of fashion in the real world. ;)
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
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Instant Characters gives a nice summary
This message last edited by Joel on 19/09/2012 at 03:52:59 AM
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Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay - 07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM 2540 Views
!!!!! - 07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM 1227 Views
are they created kindly or cruelly? - 08/09/2012 05:34:36 PM 1193 Views
Lol! Realistically, if exaggerated to heroic levels. - 09/09/2012 07:56:32 PM 1207 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once - 08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM 1324 Views
BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO. - 08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM 1213 Views
*revelation* - 08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM 1155 Views
fireballs are so epic in BG1 - 08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM 1205 Views
I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent - 08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM 1294 Views
Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt. - 08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM 1141 Views
it was such a liability - 08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM 1182 Views
Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once. - 08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM 1124 Views
There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins... - 09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM 1209 Views
Oops. - 09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM 1200 Views
that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards - 09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM 1183 Views
Yeah, got to keep one of each on hand. - 08/09/2012 08:57:31 PM 1096 Views
Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party. - 08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM 1172 Views
well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out - 08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM 1291 Views
Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice - 08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM 1296 Views
Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though? - 09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM 1246 Views
I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM 1362 Views
Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM 1208 Views
Agreed. - 11/09/2012 07:01:07 PM 1240 Views
Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway... - 15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM 1262 Views
That is a good thought; I never played IWD. - 16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM 1176 Views
Where did you think I just got it? - 16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM 1124 Views
How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM 1123 Views
Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM 1311 Views
I still like GURPS' character points best. - 17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM 1164 Views
Heh, I'm not surprised. - 18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM 1163 Views
If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM 1372 Views
I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works. - 18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM 1253 Views
I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM 1593 Views
Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM 1209 Views
It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM 1258 Views
Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM 1185 Views
AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM 1478 Views
Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM 1169 Views
Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM 1384 Views
Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM 1302 Views
My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM 1399 Views
Re: My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM 1403 Views
I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM 1212 Views
Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM 1333 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM 1355 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM 1217 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM 1830 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM 1157 Views
I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far. - 18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM 1124 Views
Nah, IWD I barely had any story at all. - 18/09/2012 08:16:49 PM 1054 Views
agreed - 19/09/2012 09:42:28 AM 1320 Views
I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1 - 08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM 1218 Views
If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods. - 08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM 1111 Views
But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs? - 08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM 1123 Views
agreed the NPCs are half the fun - 08/09/2012 07:02:22 PM 1156 Views
Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling. - 08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM 1244 Views
Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy. - 09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM 1131 Views
Well, there are always mods for that. - 09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM 1079 Views
For talking to pretty much anyone, really. - 09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM 1163 Views
True. - 09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM 1169 Views
Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party. - 09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM 1112 Views
there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB - 09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM 1072 Views
I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP. - 09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM 1186 Views
storyline man! - 10/09/2012 01:43:51 PM 1138 Views
I make my OWN storyline. - 10/09/2012 06:35:43 PM 1213 Views
Just how many thieves do you even need? - 10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM 1151 Views
The stealth skills come in very handy though. - 09/09/2012 04:11:40 PM 1153 Views
Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM* - 10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM 649 Views
I plan to do custom characters for the other 6 slots - 10/09/2012 01:42:41 AM 1121 Views
There are no "other" six slots - there are six slots, period. - 10/09/2012 06:24:33 PM 1098 Views
well, absolute standard would be: - 10/09/2012 01:35:15 PM 1190 Views
My own recommendation would be: - 10/09/2012 07:36:04 PM 1140 Views
I am completely stoked about it. - 10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM 1192 Views
TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun. - 10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM 1075 Views
all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee - 11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM 1110 Views
Ah; nice. - 11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM 1220 Views
i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time - 12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM 1121 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom. - 13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM 1183 Views
If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993. - 13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM 1157 Views
Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM* - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 661 Views
Can't believe I forgot about HALF-LIFE. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:06:55 PM 644 Views
That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM* - 13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM 639 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it - 12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM 1175 Views
Re: I don't mind the graphics in it - 13/09/2012 01:55:24 AM 1098 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related. - 10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM 1120 Views
I remember Wisdom being important - 14/09/2012 04:28:23 AM 1065 Views
And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM* - 15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM 637 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul - 15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM 1162 Views
Among many many others. - 17/09/2012 06:45:33 PM 1123 Views

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