It's also worth noting that given enough time and skill a person can compile a fake set of reasons for their actions, but let me cite some evidence that my thinking was as I said it was regaridng WF/SK at the time:
This is the text of a conversation Fox and I had early in the WF accusation phase yesterday, some bolding by me for empahasis, red text are commentary:
Me
Let me cite an example. In a game this size our norm has been for there to be an extra NK in play, partial or total, controlled by the scummer faction, the town, or a third party. Rarely in a game this size do we have a single hitter, particularly if we're role heavy and initial indicators is that we are (to clarify, if vanillas don't make up 50% of the crew, you're technically role heavy, though in-house I'd say more like iff 5 out of our 13 players aren't vanilla we are role heavy)
Now, let's say I have concluded we probably have some other NK in play and I think its matched to characters and not in SKrull hands, and I look at your list: Keep in mind I'm talking to someone who knows my character and vice-versa and hinting at things
The Human Torch
The Hulk
Magneto
The Punisher
The Punisher stands out as an archetype for the vig role, and MAgneto's a arch-villain and the Hulk is a story all his own. If I thought we had a extra NK in play, a vig scenario for the Punisher would be fairly logical. But let's say I knew you were the Human Torch and could scratch you off that list and there would be a need then to find someone else who might make a logical holder of a NK. Keeping to the Fantastic 4 flavor, lets say someone was the Invisible Woman, she'd be a pretty obvious choice for stealthy watcher, doesn't mean she would be,pointing out watcher option to Fox for Hobo, also a tangential request to Hobo to say yes or no but it would be weird to bypass that character for the role, or also on the Fan 4 option, the notorious all seeing character "The Watcher" would be a logical watcher choice. Now of course, if you were the Punisher and a vig it wouldn't mean we don't have a SK but it would be less likely, but if I had info indicating you were not, because you were the torch or squirrel girl or whatever, logically I'd scratch you off the NK-likely list if I were working under the assumption that roles correlate to characters, an assumptyion that appears to be true. Scanning down the list, I don't recognize everyone, but nobody else had any ambiguously aligned (not particularly heroes) homicidal sorts, except for your Magneto and Yuna's LEx Luthor - who of course is not a Marvel Character. I'm sure you get my point, lacking much other evidence, we take what we do know and use it, it could easily be wrong but at least its not random. From what I know, the most obvious third party NK would be WF, nobody else really fits the bill. That doesn't mean he is one, and id doesn't mean we have a SK, or even another NK, on the table, but previous games have featured them a lot for parallel circumstances and thus the odds favor it. But that's the whole problem of stats, something either is or isn't, regardless of the probabilities (except in quantum mechanics) a coin will either land head or tails, its not random, its still fair to say it's 50/50 on a given flip and to act accordingly. WF had a list that screamed unlikely or third party, so I pointed it out, and he claimed something I find very unlikely, which is a classic response for a scummer in cases like this, again, doesn't mean he is but the odds are pretty strong, and we've got nothing else right now.
Fox
But my point here is more that I don't think we should really judge him based off his character but rather the way he acted when confronted. Judging directly from that, I'd say he's more innocent than guilty. I do get your point about the fantastic 4 and all that stuff though. With nothing else to go off of, I'll back you up but I won't feel good about it.
Now something key, in hindsight Hobo probably just missed it, but when I basically blatantly said I thought Hobo was a watcher, I figured if he wasn't, he would say so, he'd post some comment indicating that he was not, and he read the thread because he replied to later bits of the thread, Fox had caught it, so I assume he had, since he moved on WF in those comments. Sucks, cross-communication on day 1 is a bitch, trust me I've done it a lot, but, it is what it is. It might have gotten a bit obvious if Hobo had been all like "Yes, I also like this Fan 4 analogy, but I don't think Invisible girl is a likely watcher candidate" so I decided he was trying to avoid giving anything away when I'd likely assume as much or suspected me of being scum and didn't want to hand me an axe, etc.
This is the text of a conversation Fox and I had early in the WF accusation phase yesterday, some bolding by me for empahasis, red text are commentary:
Me
Let me cite an example. In a game this size our norm has been for there to be an extra NK in play, partial or total, controlled by the scummer faction, the town, or a third party. Rarely in a game this size do we have a single hitter, particularly if we're role heavy and initial indicators is that we are (to clarify, if vanillas don't make up 50% of the crew, you're technically role heavy, though in-house I'd say more like iff 5 out of our 13 players aren't vanilla we are role heavy)
Now, let's say I have concluded we probably have some other NK in play and I think its matched to characters and not in SKrull hands, and I look at your list: Keep in mind I'm talking to someone who knows my character and vice-versa and hinting at things
The Human Torch
The Hulk
Magneto
The Punisher
The Punisher stands out as an archetype for the vig role, and MAgneto's a arch-villain and the Hulk is a story all his own. If I thought we had a extra NK in play, a vig scenario for the Punisher would be fairly logical. But let's say I knew you were the Human Torch and could scratch you off that list and there would be a need then to find someone else who might make a logical holder of a NK. Keeping to the Fantastic 4 flavor, lets say someone was the Invisible Woman, she'd be a pretty obvious choice for stealthy watcher, doesn't mean she would be,pointing out watcher option to Fox for Hobo, also a tangential request to Hobo to say yes or no but it would be weird to bypass that character for the role, or also on the Fan 4 option, the notorious all seeing character "The Watcher" would be a logical watcher choice. Now of course, if you were the Punisher and a vig it wouldn't mean we don't have a SK but it would be less likely, but if I had info indicating you were not, because you were the torch or squirrel girl or whatever, logically I'd scratch you off the NK-likely list if I were working under the assumption that roles correlate to characters, an assumptyion that appears to be true. Scanning down the list, I don't recognize everyone, but nobody else had any ambiguously aligned (not particularly heroes) homicidal sorts, except for your Magneto and Yuna's LEx Luthor - who of course is not a Marvel Character. I'm sure you get my point, lacking much other evidence, we take what we do know and use it, it could easily be wrong but at least its not random. From what I know, the most obvious third party NK would be WF, nobody else really fits the bill. That doesn't mean he is one, and id doesn't mean we have a SK, or even another NK, on the table, but previous games have featured them a lot for parallel circumstances and thus the odds favor it. But that's the whole problem of stats, something either is or isn't, regardless of the probabilities (except in quantum mechanics) a coin will either land head or tails, its not random, its still fair to say it's 50/50 on a given flip and to act accordingly. WF had a list that screamed unlikely or third party, so I pointed it out, and he claimed something I find very unlikely, which is a classic response for a scummer in cases like this, again, doesn't mean he is but the odds are pretty strong, and we've got nothing else right now.
Fox
But my point here is more that I don't think we should really judge him based off his character but rather the way he acted when confronted. Judging directly from that, I'd say he's more innocent than guilty. I do get your point about the fantastic 4 and all that stuff though. With nothing else to go off of, I'll back you up but I won't feel good about it.
Now something key, in hindsight Hobo probably just missed it, but when I basically blatantly said I thought Hobo was a watcher, I figured if he wasn't, he would say so, he'd post some comment indicating that he was not, and he read the thread because he replied to later bits of the thread, Fox had caught it, so I assume he had, since he moved on WF in those comments. Sucks, cross-communication on day 1 is a bitch, trust me I've done it a lot, but, it is what it is. It might have gotten a bit obvious if Hobo had been all like "Yes, I also like this Fan 4 analogy, but I don't think Invisible girl is a likely watcher candidate" so I decided he was trying to avoid giving anything away when I'd likely assume as much or suspected me of being scum and didn't want to hand me an axe, etc.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
RAFO Mafia 19: Superlative Crisis! ISSUE TWO: BLACK MAGIC- WHOA, MAN!
- 03/11/2010 04:59:59 AM
2903 Views
I see two avenues to discuss here
- 03/11/2010 11:41:14 AM
1127 Views
I was thinking about number 1.
- 03/11/2010 10:00:57 PM
1133 Views
Regarding 2, and let me suggets a 3
- 04/11/2010 02:30:41 AM
1193 Views
I, personally, agree with Isaac so here goes.
- 04/11/2010 11:33:07 PM
1108 Views
O.......K..........
- 05/11/2010 11:43:14 PM
1075 Views
Did Fist use his power last Night?
- 06/11/2010 03:41:05 AM
1117 Views
It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 06/11/2010 04:53:19 AM
1134 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 06/11/2010 05:30:00 PM
1110 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 06/11/2010 07:15:11 PM
1150 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 07/11/2010 08:18:16 AM
1197 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 07/11/2010 03:38:37 PM
1218 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 07/11/2010 06:42:10 PM
1194 Views
Huh, well Fox straight up told us his Mason group was a 3rd Fraction on Night 1
- 11/11/2010 12:55:50 AM
1138 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 07/11/2010 06:16:29 PM
1213 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 07/11/2010 07:16:20 PM
1141 Views
Re: It's one of three plausible explanations for his death
- 07/11/2010 09:29:12 PM
1263 Views
I am about 95% sure that WF targeted me last Night.
- 11/11/2010 01:04:34 AM
1212 Views
Interesting.
- 11/11/2010 02:25:07 AM
1138 Views
It's certainly possible.
- 11/11/2010 02:39:00 AM
1161 Views
Now I'm curious
- 11/11/2010 03:33:46 AM
1218 Views
Presumably because I'm not trying to get her lynched.
- 11/11/2010 03:53:54 AM
1197 Views
Yeah, I'm going with that #3 there.
- 04/11/2010 05:41:04 AM
1219 Views
Re: Yeah, I'm going with that #3 there.
- 04/11/2010 04:18:17 PM
1272 Views
a scummer got caught on day one in the tower game
- 04/11/2010 06:42:15 PM
1190 Views
also there was that time someone said they saw a black light instead of white
- 04/11/2010 07:52:41 PM
1129 Views
That was Hobo in DK's crossover game. *NM*
- 04/11/2010 08:16:07 PM
622 Views
You know we could just forget about that. I wouldn't complain.
*NM*
- 05/11/2010 08:35:03 PM
672 Views
*NM*
- 05/11/2010 08:35:03 PM
672 Views
Hypocop? *NM*
- 03/11/2010 03:20:17 PM
681 Views
Hobo - Innocent + read this before you HC if you haven't already
- 04/11/2010 08:25:26 PM
1111 Views
So help me I will spoil the entirety of ToM, people! (not just yet, though)
- 10/11/2010 02:51:46 AM
1077 Views
I'm pretty sure if you do, you'll be lynched. *NM*
- 10/11/2010 09:19:43 PM
634 Views
Vote: No Lynch
- 13/11/2010 12:24:43 AM
1147 Views
I am very much opposed to this idea
- 13/11/2010 02:04:27 PM
1096 Views
Then offer an alternative
- 13/11/2010 11:10:42 PM
1142 Views
Why is an inactive likely to be a townie?
- 14/11/2010 04:03:35 AM
1062 Views
Re: Why is an inactive likely to be a townie?
- 14/11/2010 04:21:12 AM
1132 Views
I had no RBIRL because my computer died.
- 14/11/2010 06:52:56 AM
1057 Views
Ah, I see you did unvote. Very well. I still got my eye on you. *NM*
- 14/11/2010 06:55:30 AM
577 Views
LOL - I guess this is also my informal defense
- 14/11/2010 08:52:56 AM
1119 Views
Saying it's not out-of-character to be scummy doesn't make you any less scummy.
- 14/11/2010 04:33:15 PM
1129 Views
Watch the difference between what he says and what he is accused of.
- 14/11/2010 07:08:08 PM
1063 Views
After this whole argument I've had with FT...
- 13/11/2010 11:42:32 PM
1087 Views
People who vote for totally random lynches don't deserve to win
- 14/11/2010 03:43:14 AM
1095 Views
Re: People who vote for totally random lynches don't deserve to win
- 14/11/2010 02:23:04 PM
1244 Views
Vote: Isaac
- 13/11/2010 11:58:56 PM
1185 Views
Re: Vote: Isaac
- 14/11/2010 03:02:15 AM
1093 Views
Re: Vote: Isaac
- 14/11/2010 04:02:30 AM
1166 Views
What was scummy?
- 14/11/2010 04:10:12 AM
1191 Views
Re: What was scummy?
- 14/11/2010 05:41:44 AM
1119 Views
Extrmely thin
- 14/11/2010 06:05:32 AM
1272 Views
Actually...
- 14/11/2010 06:55:02 AM
1197 Views
Re: Actually...
- 14/11/2010 07:44:33 AM
1138 Views
Did you guys just blitz me?
- 14/11/2010 11:35:58 PM
1187 Views
- 14/11/2010 11:35:58 PM
1187 Views
Your not hammered yet are you?
- 14/11/2010 11:46:29 PM
1096 Views
I think I might be, can never be sure what votes are worth in a heavy role game
- 14/11/2010 11:50:51 PM
1124 Views
I'm potentially alive on a technicality
- 15/11/2010 12:02:36 AM
1002 Views
Why don't you go ahead and claim then?
- 15/11/2010 12:11:03 AM
1128 Views
Sure
- 15/11/2010 12:34:34 AM
1095 Views
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
- 15/11/2010 02:13:23 AM
1186 Views
I think so.
- 15/11/2010 01:25:46 AM
1062 Views
Also, I must confess...
- 15/11/2010 01:32:44 AM
1091 Views
Re: Also, I must confess...
- 15/11/2010 01:58:26 AM
1201 Views
Yes, I would expect so.
- 15/11/2010 02:22:06 AM
1032 Views
Re: Yes, I would expect so.
- 15/11/2010 02:35:49 AM
1159 Views
I'm unvoting only if the defence is really foolproof, since now no-one can hammer without instantly
- 15/11/2010 07:18:05 AM
1133 Views
EBWOP - The "only" in the title is rebundant, it was part of different title I abandoned. *NM*
- 15/11/2010 07:19:46 AM
674 Views
I guess the first title stands afterall I won't automatically unvote just because none should hammer
- 15/11/2010 08:19:00 AM
1005 Views
I'll try to help Isaac out a bit here.
- 15/11/2010 01:11:11 PM
978 Views
Thanks, and a question too
- 15/11/2010 01:30:17 PM
1051 Views
Well, I'll unvote if the third mason comes forward too. *NM*
- 15/11/2010 03:30:36 PM
655 Views
Jeez, when it rains, it pours
- 15/11/2010 10:34:54 PM
1005 Views
OK Isaac
- 15/11/2010 11:14:45 PM
1056 Views
My Defense Posts
- 16/11/2010 04:16:41 AM
1048 Views
Defense A: The Fantastic Four
- 16/11/2010 04:31:11 AM
1117 Views
Some supporting evidence
- 16/11/2010 05:29:14 AM
1099 Views
Defense B: The Numbers Game
- 16/11/2010 04:36:59 AM
1104 Views
"What motive would a scummer have"?
- 16/11/2010 05:56:04 PM
1094 Views
Without any further questions though?
- 16/11/2010 11:51:42 PM
1175 Views
If you see an avalanche coming, you hop on board (NOT a metaphor).
- 17/11/2010 12:12:31 AM
1069 Views
Defense C: The Intro Flavor
- 16/11/2010 04:41:31 AM
1216 Views
Eh ...
- 16/11/2010 10:00:21 PM
1057 Views
Re: Eh ...
- 17/11/2010 02:33:27 AM
1099 Views
We'll take a look at that in turn, but first...
- 16/11/2010 07:01:22 AM
1148 Views
Re: We'll take a look at that in turn, but first...
- 16/11/2010 01:40:21 PM
1075 Views
Yes, that was it.
- 16/11/2010 09:05:04 PM
1071 Views
Re: Yes, that was it.
- 17/11/2010 02:55:58 AM
1087 Views
Not at all.
- 17/11/2010 03:04:50 AM
1099 Views
Well, that's a borderline lie
- 17/11/2010 04:29:47 AM
1162 Views
How do you figure?
- 17/11/2010 05:46:37 AM
1053 Views
I'd say its pretty pertinent to my defense
- 17/11/2010 06:49:20 AM
1049 Views
All right, fair enough.
- 17/11/2010 07:19:37 AM
1169 Views
Thanks for whakcing me before going to bed
- 17/11/2010 07:39:58 AM
1105 Views
- 17/11/2010 07:39:58 AM
1105 Views
By the way, I'd appreciate if no one had hammer till FT has a chance to reply and vice-versa
- 17/11/2010 07:46:18 AM
1072 Views
I have evidence in favor of and yet against F-T's claim. Take it as you will.
- 17/11/2010 07:18:35 PM
1153 Views
Slight EBWOP
- 17/11/2010 07:20:58 PM
1147 Views
Re: Slight EBWOP
- 17/11/2010 07:24:34 PM
1059 Views
Uh, that doesn't make a lot of sense
- 17/11/2010 07:22:59 PM
1136 Views
That's fair. Sanity can actually be called into question now.
- 17/11/2010 07:26:34 PM
1070 Views
Re: That's fair. Sanity can actually be called into question now.
- 17/11/2010 08:01:20 PM
1125 Views
Actually that sounds a good plan
- 17/11/2010 08:06:50 PM
1063 Views
Glad to hear you agree with yourself
- 17/11/2010 08:14:42 PM
1142 Views
- 17/11/2010 08:14:42 PM
1142 Views
:/ Wanna mention this before I forget. Little niggling that's been bugging me.
- 17/11/2010 03:03:27 AM
1078 Views
Ah yes, I noticed that as well
- 17/11/2010 04:08:15 AM
1070 Views
I just caught that
- 17/11/2010 04:53:16 AM
1204 Views
No, I don't mean Cop.
- 17/11/2010 05:29:36 AM
1079 Views
Re: No, I don't mean Cop.
- 17/11/2010 05:34:46 AM
1111 Views
I trust him because of the way he's been acting.
- 17/11/2010 06:30:26 PM
1166 Views
Complete sidetrack.
- 17/11/2010 07:28:31 PM
1153 Views
Re: Complete sidetrack.
- 17/11/2010 07:33:51 PM
1035 Views
I can't seem to find the post about that arrangement we had, incidentally.
- 17/11/2010 05:38:53 AM
1005 Views
Re: I can't seem to find the post about that arrangement we had, incidentally.
- 17/11/2010 06:04:08 AM
1021 Views
Re: I can't seem to find the post about that arrangement we had, incidentally.
- 17/11/2010 06:25:05 AM
1108 Views
Re: I can't seem to find the post about that arrangement we had, incidentally.
- 17/11/2010 06:50:04 AM
1058 Views
In the interests of honesty, now would probably be a good time to mention ...
- 17/11/2010 09:22:14 PM
1086 Views
What the balls?
- 17/11/2010 09:52:04 PM
1112 Views
I still only see one way for this day to end
- 18/11/2010 02:02:03 PM
1057 Views
Re: I still only see one way for this day to end
- 18/11/2010 03:18:50 PM
1034 Views
Its probably the blind mason loyalty thing, but I'm inclined to trust Isaac.
- 18/11/2010 05:16:28 PM
1241 Views
Re: Its probably the blind mason loyalty thing, but I'm inclined to trust Isaac.
- 18/11/2010 06:00:06 PM
1038 Views
I'd also like to point out that we know nothing about you
- 18/11/2010 03:37:08 PM
1038 Views
i don't know much about comics but
- 18/11/2010 05:45:10 PM
1093 Views
Re: i don't know much about comics but
- 18/11/2010 05:49:54 PM
979 Views
They're also Marvel characters
- 18/11/2010 06:30:11 PM
1137 Views
LOL, duly noted
- 18/11/2010 06:48:08 PM
1139 Views
- 18/11/2010 06:48:08 PM
1139 Views
Beast is really surprisingly un-beastly.
- 18/11/2010 06:28:15 PM
1119 Views
Sure
- 18/11/2010 06:42:01 PM
1099 Views
Alright, to hell with this. Let's test F-T's sanity. Vote: Isaac *NM*
- 21/11/2010 08:29:53 PM
638 Views
Ah, the frustration vote, normally my best friend
- 21/11/2010 09:58:18 PM
1067 Views
- 21/11/2010 09:58:18 PM
1067 Views
OK, here's a question for beet:
- 21/11/2010 10:37:08 PM
1079 Views
You're not suggesting we lynch F-T instead of Isaac, are you?
- 21/11/2010 11:17:19 PM
1058 Views
But we do get information
- 22/11/2010 12:17:20 AM
1082 Views
<-- Btw, first time I got the hammer vote. My life is now complete. *NM*
- 22/11/2010 12:20:53 AM
637 Views
Well, congrats
*NM*
- 22/11/2010 12:32:34 AM
682 Views
*NM*
- 22/11/2010 12:32:34 AM
682 Views
Since this is a first for both of us...
- 22/11/2010 12:35:29 AM
1055 Views
- 22/11/2010 12:35:29 AM
1055 Views
When someone dies, you find out their role. "Psycho Cop" is a distinct role.
- 21/11/2010 11:22:50 PM
1071 Views
Isaac wonders how he could be lynched without scum involvement...
- 22/11/2010 12:00:31 AM
1024 Views
Re: Isaac wonders how he could be lynched without scum involvement...
- 22/11/2010 12:21:01 AM
1132 Views
Isaac has been lynched!
- 22/11/2010 03:10:01 AM
984 Views
I can't help but feel a silver bullet would have been appropriate
- 22/11/2010 04:11:13 AM
988 Views
- 22/11/2010 04:11:13 AM
988 Views
I find that astounding, considering the level of suspicion generally laid upon you *NM*
- 22/11/2010 04:16:04 AM
683 Views
I might just mount your head on my wall
.
- 22/11/2010 05:09:45 AM
1180 Views
.
- 22/11/2010 05:09:45 AM
1180 Views
I consider myself an integral part in this group.
- 22/11/2010 05:27:12 AM
1161 Views



