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There may be a clue to this in the descriptions of astral projection in comics and psychic studies RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 26/05/2010 11:59:42 PM
If you could do it, there would quite literally be two different versions of you in existence at the same time. The "ethereal" you and the real you. That just boggles the mind with all the completely bizarre things that could happen as a result.


Nothing bizarre at all around it; we already know of at least one instance where a soul is disconnected from the body - the mindtrap.

It seems to me that the situation will be similar to what psychics call "entering the astral plane". In most popular conceptions or descriptions of psychic projection you project your consciousness from your body, so that you can see your body sleeping, but you yourself can travel around as a psychic entity through the real world unable to touch or move things.

The difficulty may be in returning to your body without suffering a debilitating physical shock or getting lost or trapped in the World of Dreams by a nightmare, which would destroy you while your flesh lived on without a mind or a soul to direct it.

This may be why Moghedien was terrified when they confronted two male channelers in T'A'R fighting with the One Power while in the flesh - the damage would be both spiritual and physical at the same time, making a Dreamer encountering a person's body in T'A'R
doubly threatened especially if the other person had Dreamwalking training. If Rahvin successfully turned Rand into a pig (I forget which animal it was) in T'A'R while Rand was there in the flesh, where does the illusion end? Rand not only felt himself trapped in a nightmare, but he was also physically changing - he subjected his reality to a stronger and more skilled opponents' and was almost defeated rather quickly.

This did bring up another idea though. What if you did this in reverse? What if a dreamer entered TAR in the flesh while tired, and then went to sleep while he was in TAR itself? I mean if you are there in the flesh you would presumably carry all your fleshy problems including tiredness so you could go to sleep. But since you were already in the world of dreams, where would you go? Would you go nowhere? Or in this case, would you appear in the same TAR in ethereal form and be able to mess around with your sleeping body (which was also in TAR).


I'd like to think that your spirit form can't interact with your body in any way. The main problem with TAR is that you derive neither rest nor sustenance from it - thus a Dreamer has to make themselves ready to access T'A'R and then take themselves out of that state into a normal sleep cycle to get rest. Egwene, for example, was frequently very tired upon waking after spending hours waiting for Nynaeve or Elayne because she wasn't getting real sleep. Even if your body was in T'A'R, the stress seems to be resulting from the astral projection needed to Dreamwalk. You could very well imagine yourself back into your body after being in T'A'R and find yourself doubly exhausted because your body and mind didn't get actual rest. Food doesn't sustain you in T'A'R either, because it isn't real and you could starve to death while Dreaming yourself in front of a huge feast.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
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Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:10:07 PM 1667 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:28:34 PM 1060 Views
No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:37:27 PM 1084 Views
Re: No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:39:42 PM 944 Views
Re: No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:52:22 PM 872 Views
I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 26/05/2010 09:26:20 PM 793 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 26/05/2010 09:49:24 PM 793 Views
And it seems the woman wearing the bracelet has strange dreams too - 26/05/2010 10:54:26 PM 908 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 27/05/2010 06:46:42 PM 771 Views
I think it would be the latter - 27/05/2010 07:11:17 PM 892 Views
I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. - 26/05/2010 11:39:14 PM 854 Views
I disagree - 27/05/2010 03:21:05 PM 841 Views
Re: I disagree - 27/05/2010 07:08:41 PM 878 Views
If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off - 27/05/2010 07:14:26 PM 896 Views
Re: If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off - 27/05/2010 09:21:11 PM 1009 Views
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing here - 27/05/2010 09:24:37 PM 856 Views
We are close to the same idea, but different in where we think her ability will stop. - 27/05/2010 09:37:28 PM 833 Views
*nods* *NM* - 27/05/2010 11:29:10 PM 384 Views
But channelling is not a requirement to enter TAR - 27/05/2010 08:31:21 AM 766 Views
The a'dam affects things in Channelers other than the ability itself - 27/05/2010 01:58:34 PM 963 Views
I don't agree. - 27/05/2010 03:02:08 PM 825 Views
you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 03:11:50 PM 961 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 06:30:29 PM 903 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 06:42:36 PM 867 Views
That's the point. - 27/05/2010 06:57:35 PM 853 Views
Re: That's the point. - 27/05/2010 07:10:25 PM 821 Views
Re: That's the point. - 27/05/2010 07:16:49 PM 799 Views
We may never know! - 27/05/2010 09:21:48 PM 839 Views
I would be very surprised if it came up in the books - 27/05/2010 09:25:29 PM 807 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/05/2010 09:38:04 PM 786 Views
Fascinating Idea #4 on this thread. Thanks, Sid! *NM* - 26/05/2010 10:31:48 PM 387 Views
Channeler heal thyself - 26/05/2010 11:40:25 PM 929 Views
There may be a clue to this in the descriptions of astral projection in comics and psychic studies - 26/05/2010 11:59:42 PM 825 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:35:49 PM 825 Views
Doesn't work - 26/05/2010 08:37:40 PM 1029 Views
we've seen this fail - 26/05/2010 08:38:06 PM 772 Views
I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:39:32 PM 766 Views
I'd say you either die or just wake up if you tried that - 26/05/2010 08:40:31 PM 779 Views
As far as I know... - 26/05/2010 08:38:36 PM 830 Views
This could work - 26/05/2010 08:43:21 PM 984 Views
Thanks - 26/05/2010 08:51:17 PM 820 Views
Re: Thanks - 26/05/2010 09:12:10 PM 783 Views
So I think this disproves it - 26/05/2010 08:49:55 PM 1067 Views
Is that really true? - 26/05/2010 08:53:45 PM 844 Views
Sid, I made some edits, but really nothing's certain. Look again, pls. *NM* - 26/05/2010 08:55:30 PM 403 Views
I would generally agree with your edits - 26/05/2010 08:57:32 PM 804 Views
yes and no - 26/05/2010 09:31:53 PM 720 Views
Re: yes and no - 26/05/2010 09:55:46 PM 768 Views
well Moghedien somehow managed to create a whole Body for Birgitte - 26/05/2010 10:36:45 PM 845 Views
Could Rahvin turn Rand into a fishman if he was just there in Spirit? - 26/05/2010 10:19:05 PM 800 Views
And I agree with your response - 26/05/2010 09:49:00 PM 807 Views
You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. - 26/05/2010 10:06:02 PM 893 Views
Re: You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. - 26/05/2010 10:57:06 PM 761 Views
The short answer to Birgitte - 27/05/2010 02:37:13 AM 783 Views
I think this is possible. - 26/05/2010 11:28:51 PM 838 Views
Dream gateway! - 27/05/2010 12:05:31 AM 779 Views
I think the problem is that you can only channel Spirit through your T'A'R form - 27/05/2010 03:05:13 PM 745 Views
if you dream yourself into T'A'R then you're just a creation of your own mind - 27/05/2010 12:02:38 AM 724 Views
aren't we all? *NM* - 27/05/2010 12:04:08 AM 353 Views
if that was true you couldn't die in T'A'R - 27/05/2010 12:08:10 AM 748 Views
Why not? - 27/05/2010 03:41:10 PM 914 Views
if it's just a creation of your mind? - 27/05/2010 04:03:29 PM 853 Views
is it possible to Travel in T'A'R when dreaming? - 27/05/2010 12:06:57 AM 782 Views
I don't think anybody has said this before... - 27/05/2010 04:01:28 AM 855 Views
Your real body can only channel Spirit. - 27/05/2010 05:25:08 AM 865 Views
Yes, but you need real One Power to affect the real world. - 27/05/2010 06:46:21 AM 823 Views
The only real situation we have to compare... - 27/05/2010 06:59:51 AM 760 Views
That's a weird situation. - 27/05/2010 07:09:21 AM 812 Views
Well, yes. The Birgitte situation can't be compared directly to Sidious' - 27/05/2010 08:01:38 AM 839 Views
Re: The only real situation we have to compare... - 27/05/2010 07:11:45 PM 865 Views
If something that didn't exist before existed after... - 27/05/2010 08:58:55 PM 787 Views
Re: If something that didn't exist before existed after... - 28/05/2010 02:09:01 PM 887 Views
Actually I don't think so.. - 28/05/2010 02:31:27 PM 751 Views
your dream self couldn't exit TAR... - 27/05/2010 06:39:26 AM 826 Views
TAR constructs cannot leave it. - 27/05/2010 04:57:12 PM 974 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 27/05/2010 06:58:18 PM 772 Views
shucks everyone already thought of this... *NM* - 27/05/2010 07:08:50 PM 352 Views
problem solved... sort of? - 28/05/2010 02:48:13 AM 907 Views
I agree with those saying that if you don't physically enter TAR... - 29/05/2010 09:32:40 PM 806 Views

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