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Re: O... you assume I don't know my stuff DomA Send a noteboard - 06/10/2010 10:20:35 PM
You know, I wonder how the souls for shadowspawn are selected. Are the souls of trollocs the souls of people who in past life swore to the shadow, and the DO can then pull those souls into trollocs since they sort of belong to him.


Jordan didn't say but his explanation left me the impression that's part of the nature of things that a soul gets attached to being "at the moment of conception".

My guess is that ithe Creator has put some mechanisms in place which award each soul a rebirth that is the consequence of the sort of life one lead in the last incarnation. We know some of this happens: for instance, someone's exceptional life or qualities might trigger the Wheel to "collect" this soul to join the special "Heroes" soul pool.

It's not impossible souls are "judged" after death, and the rebirth they get next is meant to make them progress toward.... the sort of spiritual enlightenment the Dragon Soul has reached. I think Rand's soul has reached a very high level of progress (Budhha like), which is why he could even survive all he did before the DM epiphany. A lesser soul would have long fallen to the Shadow, or to self-destruction. Rand could bear the extreme path, falter and hit the bottom of the barrel... and when he rebounds, he does so spectacularly.

So... if you lead a very bad, unbalanced life, you might be awarded a rebirth where you have to endure the depradations of bad people. Etc. Mierin might be reborn as a very physically imperfect, not too intelligent baby, etc. I tend to think the life you lead is how the "key events" of your next life get picked for you by the Wheel... and from there it's to you to make the best of it. I think in the "normal afterlife", everyone has access to all lives/memories to reflect on yourself, your successes and failures etc., not just the Heroes like Rand, Birgitte etc.


Is Verin going to reborn as a trolloc and be forever damned since she swore to the DO.


I'm undecided when it comes to DF/Forsaken.

Brandon implied there are lasting consequences for your soul for tying yourself to Shai'tan. It's likely we'll get more information on this in the last two books.

Personally, I doubt Trollocs have human souls. I think when they do, they are born as Myrddraal (or the other way around... when the genetics is too much a throwback to human stock, this being attracts a human soul). I think Trollocs are born with animal souls (if there is such a differentiation between souls... it's perfectly possible a soul is a soul and not species specific, and it progresses through the Ages and Turnings from inanimate, to animal to human etc., with possible regressions on occasion)

Or is it just random chance, where if you are unlucky your soul is pulled into a trolloc and forever corrupted simply because it happened to be available for rebirth during the birth of a trolloc. That would suck pretty bad if your soul would be forever corrupted due to no fault of your own.


Because the TP was involved in all this, I think that indeed it is "random back luck". This is not planned by the Wheel, as the TP has interfered. So in essence, I think the soul gets "stolen". For the rest, I don't think there's an intervention from Shai'tan, nor even from Aginor, or the AS who made constructs to attach a soul to an artificial being. I think manipulating cells and DNA to produce a new lifeform makes this process of a soul getting attached, a new life thread woven happen automatically. Because of the TP interference, I think the future of a shadowspawn is largely unpredictable (so would be someone deciding to swear one day to Shai'tan, who is not part of the Pattern. I don't think the Wheel foresees this), so some poor soul destined for a good life as a owl or eagle or fox gets stolen for a twisted Trolloc.

It sounds to me a lot that the problem is that death can't "cleanse you" or make you progress spiritually, only an incarnation can. The consequence of that is that a soul who lived a life as Shadowspawn is tainted, too tainted to be reborn as anything else, and only by being incarnated again could it gradually cleanse itself and progress again. So, it's a vicious circle.. too tainted for rebirth, and no rebirth means no cleansing possible.

RJ also said Trolloc souls are pitiful things, which confirms there is a hierachy among souls, some more advanced or powerful than others. Incidentally, IMO I think there are basically two sides to strength in the OP: one side is like Rand: spiritual enlightenment making your soul more and more powerful, the other side is like Lanfear/Ishamael and co: your soul increases in power because you are obsessed with power. I think the two aspects co-exist. My feeling is that Lanfear periodically gets "tested" with her rebirths. After a cycle of "training", she is given an incarnation where she has near everything. Obviously, as Mierin she is still a massive failure, still spiritually a failure: she got perfect physique and a power to fascinate, great intelligence, massive power.. .and yet she spent her life obsessing over what she couldn't get: the ability to channel the two halves of the OP - and while her beauty and charm gave the huge advantage that among all the men she could pretty much choose the best suited to her and chances were he'd fall in love... she went and picked the one man who rejected her, and spent all her life obsessed over that. Lanfear is probably due for a rebirth as someone who isn't at all gifted, because she cannot handle having almost everything. Same for Demandred, Semirhage... These souls are unable to cope with the challenge of being gifted with so much power. They misuse it, are just greedy for more etc.

I wonder why the DO would not do all in his power to have the dragon-soul be born into a shadowspawn, just once. If the corruption is forever, then that would be game over.


I don't think the DO attaches the souls to Shadowspawn himself, but he could eventually transmigrate a soul into a Shadospawn's body..... but for the DR... it's only if he had Rand's soul in his keeping to transmigrate... He could also very possibly keep this soul forever with him.. or even destroy it.

It would be "game over" for Rand's soul - after a life as Trolloc he would be useless for rebirth as a human, but RJ has strongly suggested the Dragon Soul is the Chosen One as he's the best for the task, but a new Chosen One would be picked among the Heroes to be the champion against Shai'tan if something was to happen to the Dragon Soul. I think the Heroes are just very advanced souls on their spiritual path. There is a great wisdom, a kind of zen peace, to Birgitte despite appearances. It is also too overlooked that Gaidal and her are like the "perfect lovers": no dependance, no jealousy, no possession, complete loyalty, trust, friendship, dedication, complementarity etc. There are many among the Heroes that are inspired by religious figures, from the Dragon to Birgitte (she's a mix of many things, including St Brigid), St Patrick, Amaterasu who is a Shinto Sun Goddess etc.
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Chapter 1 released - 01/10/2010 01:40:27 PM 5748 Views
For the record, it sucks waiting for you people to wake up and read this - 01/10/2010 01:50:02 PM 1465 Views
Deadsy is like the Keebler Elves, but real - 01/10/2010 04:38:15 PM 1327 Views
Not too much new to work with. Is "she" Egwene? Cads? Someone else? *NM* - 01/10/2010 02:01:12 PM 825 Views
Thanks for the heads up, by the way. *NM* - 01/10/2010 02:01:34 PM 796 Views
Egwene - 01/10/2010 02:06:57 PM 1423 Views
Re: Egwene - 01/10/2010 02:15:24 PM 1469 Views
Well damn. Was that Buddha? - 01/10/2010 02:36:29 PM 1911 Views
This blaming Brandon for everything stuff is getting old. - 01/10/2010 02:55:04 PM 1588 Views
I've never blamed BS for anything (expect fucking up Mat's character) - 01/10/2010 03:27:36 PM 1359 Views
I suppose it looks like I'm singling you out - 01/10/2010 03:31:41 PM 1397 Views
I agree with you. *NM* - 01/10/2010 10:30:49 PM 750 Views
BOOOOO I want Sunshine and Rainbows damnit *NM* - 01/10/2010 11:04:21 PM 794 Views
Care bears... care! *NM* - 02/10/2010 07:39:33 AM 1007 Views
LMAO *NM* - 02/10/2010 09:34:23 PM 758 Views
WOW! It's beautyful - 01/10/2010 02:51:07 PM 1609 Views
i guess he's found a bit of peace at last - 01/10/2010 02:53:39 PM 1384 Views
Poorly written, but I still got goosebumps at Rand's importance finally being demonstrated... - 01/10/2010 03:14:48 PM 1601 Views
"My father’s estates do produce lumber and fine woods, and ice peppers, and furs, and more besides." - 01/10/2010 03:27:22 PM 1788 Views
It's the style. In the Randland context, the word "grows" is more appropriate... - 01/10/2010 03:31:22 PM 1429 Views
did you not read my reply title? That was a quote from The Shadow Rising, same exact context. *NM* - 01/10/2010 03:32:23 PM 783 Views
Fine. So be it. It still feels wrong to me. *NM* - 01/10/2010 03:36:16 PM 677 Views
but it's all RJ's fault *NM* - 01/10/2010 03:40:14 PM 625 Views
Maybe it's in the context of BS's sentences... - 01/10/2010 03:44:28 PM 1356 Views
Funny, I like BS more than RJ - 01/10/2010 03:46:53 PM 1350 Views
Ya, BS's Elayne was totally different than RJ's... *NM* - 01/10/2010 03:52:33 PM 802 Views
I feel bad for you. I really do. - 01/10/2010 03:54:02 PM 1391 Views
Have to disagree.. - 04/10/2010 09:06:53 PM 1314 Views
OMG... how cool is Rand? - 01/10/2010 03:28:05 PM 1602 Views
Yes, and what I love is the CERTAINTY. - 01/10/2010 03:35:38 PM 1505 Views
yeah exactly! - 01/10/2010 04:37:01 PM 1555 Views
It sounds like Rand is finally growing up - 01/10/2010 03:46:54 PM 1490 Views
He has achieved enlightenment and knows more than everyone else, so he doesn't have to be insecure.. - 01/10/2010 03:52:23 PM 1286 Views
I don't agree - I think that what he is going to tell Egwene will be unpleasant for everyone. - 01/10/2010 04:07:19 PM 1387 Views
Why would that upset her? - 01/10/2010 04:21:29 PM 1434 Views
Because I think she was hoping to work with him to solve some of these problems - 01/10/2010 04:42:33 PM 1403 Views
I tend to agree - 05/10/2010 01:41:22 AM 1267 Views
LTT didn't embrace the name Dragon - 05/10/2010 02:57:59 AM 1421 Views
EOTW, prologue - 05/10/2010 02:08:45 PM 1294 Views
Rand's actions on Dragonmount - 01/10/2010 05:19:20 PM 1473 Views
Re: Chapter 1 released - 01/10/2010 05:24:24 PM 1376 Views
Great one! - 01/10/2010 05:31:45 PM 1357 Views
The Sickness - 01/10/2010 07:22:24 PM 1603 Views
thoughts - 01/10/2010 07:28:38 PM 1604 Views
Re: thoughts - 01/10/2010 08:36:18 PM 1261 Views
Egwene - 03/10/2010 02:57:38 AM 1529 Views
Re: Egwene - 04/10/2010 09:44:00 AM 1230 Views
Nonsense - 05/10/2010 03:52:31 AM 1255 Views
Re: Nonsense - 05/10/2010 09:53:06 AM 1652 Views
seriously! Read what Egwene actually says sometime... - 06/10/2010 08:17:15 PM 1212 Views
Re: seriously! Read what Egwene actually says sometime... - 06/10/2010 08:40:39 PM 1017 Views
want to back that up with an actual quote from Egwene's mouth? - 06/10/2010 11:01:09 PM 1160 Views
Re: want to back that up with an actual quote from Egwene's mouth? - 07/10/2010 09:45:21 PM 1254 Views
Yes, but her comment is far closer to the truth than his! - 07/10/2010 10:18:54 PM 1321 Views
I'd say - 08/10/2010 08:30:17 PM 1194 Views
just like Egwene is 100% correct about AS being compelled - 08/10/2010 10:31:03 PM 1154 Views
Unlikely, I know, but... - 01/10/2010 07:42:17 PM 1364 Views
I am so confused... - 01/10/2010 09:45:32 PM 1549 Views
Re: I am so confused... - 01/10/2010 10:02:59 PM 1377 Views
Re: I am so confused... - 01/10/2010 10:17:14 PM 1310 Views
Re: I am so confused... - 01/10/2010 10:22:14 PM 1262 Views
Re: I am so confused... - 01/10/2010 11:21:32 PM 1270 Views
Re: I am so confused... - 02/10/2010 01:01:47 AM 1245 Views
We've seen hints of this power for a while - 02/10/2010 09:42:04 PM 1191 Views
That may have been an indirect result of using the TP, rather than a direct one - 03/10/2010 03:30:24 AM 1225 Views
I'm surprised no one has discussed Seanchan yet - 01/10/2010 10:20:37 PM 1656 Views
But there have always been murderers on the Crystal Throne. *NM* - 01/10/2010 11:42:52 PM 736 Views
Probably... - 02/10/2010 02:09:45 PM 1574 Views
Re: Probably... - 04/10/2010 11:21:14 PM 1212 Views
Hahah I am so pumped for this book. - 02/10/2010 02:29:25 AM 1265 Views
Thanks. - 02/10/2010 04:40:30 AM 1231 Views
Thanks Deadsy - 02/10/2010 10:05:15 AM 1480 Views
Why are people saying Rands turned into some happy clappy - 02/10/2010 01:56:58 PM 1310 Views
He's met Bunt (but that's beside the point) *NM* - 02/10/2010 02:16:36 PM 742 Views
Nice one... - 02/10/2010 02:06:27 PM 1493 Views
Moridin.... - 02/10/2010 04:03:34 PM 1414 Views
I've seen it theorized (before chapter 1 was released) that - 02/10/2010 04:39:09 PM 1299 Views
That seems likely to me. - 02/10/2010 05:24:23 PM 1191 Views
I don't think... - 02/10/2010 05:44:05 PM 1708 Views
I agree with you - 03/10/2010 02:02:40 AM 1177 Views
Not up to Moridin - 03/10/2010 11:34:24 PM 1220 Views
Re: I don't think... - 05/10/2010 02:11:32 AM 1158 Views
seems about right ... standard 2nd book of a Trilogy type stuff - 06/10/2010 08:25:54 PM 1093 Views
When are they gonna release Chapter 30? =P *NM* - 02/10/2010 05:21:40 PM 728 Views
Re:TOM Chapter 1 Biblical Parallel - 02/10/2010 08:31:35 PM 1346 Views
When Cameron was in Egypt land, let my Cameron go - 02/10/2010 08:45:55 PM 1240 Views
Re: When Cameron was in Egypt land, let my Cameron go - 03/10/2010 12:44:44 AM 1237 Views
My own impressions - 03/10/2010 01:58:21 PM 1226 Views
dammit how am i supposed to read this without reading the prologue first? *NM* - 03/10/2010 08:51:58 PM 782 Views
short but sweet like th apples *NM* - 03/10/2010 09:13:09 PM 730 Views
Chapter 1 is not connected to the prologue. *NM* - 04/10/2010 05:21:19 PM 785 Views
The revival of the Green Man? - 03/10/2010 09:25:50 PM 1357 Views
Likes this theory! - 04/10/2010 12:06:09 AM 1278 Views
Re: The revival of the Green Man? - 04/10/2010 01:05:06 AM 1344 Views
Re: The revival of the Green Man? - 04/10/2010 11:49:54 PM 1290 Views
You assume the supply of Souls is finite - 05/10/2010 02:49:28 AM 1171 Views
Yes - 05/10/2010 02:08:10 PM 1349 Views
That doesn't make sense - 06/10/2010 04:14:54 AM 1104 Views
you assume that a soul is tainted forever and not returned to a nutral state upon death. - 06/10/2010 06:43:11 AM 1226 Views
O... you assume I don't know my stuff - 06/10/2010 02:35:06 PM 1259 Views
Re: O... you assume I don't know my stuff - 06/10/2010 06:38:49 PM 1108 Views
Re: O... you assume I don't know my stuff - 06/10/2010 10:20:35 PM 1288 Views
Did you ever read the Ender series of books? - 05/10/2010 09:55:11 PM 1195 Views
OMG That is so cool! - 04/10/2010 04:22:21 PM 1347 Views
Re: OMG That is so cool! - 31/10/2010 07:13:11 PM 1081 Views
Deadsy, you always are bringing me the good s**t...Thanks! *NM* - 05/10/2010 01:37:48 PM 1150 Views
ARGH! Spoilers! Spoilers! MINE EYES!!!! - 14/10/2010 08:52:53 AM 1254 Views

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