Like I told Sidious; just because you only choose to compare mass murder by one group to mass murder commited by another group, does not mean any other atrocities can't be compared. What were these other atrocities and how were they responded to (or the lack thereof) by this other group (the White Tower in this case).

I can agree there are levels of what kind of impact these different atrocities have, but comparing different atrocities and comparing how -and if- they were responded to appropriately is a very valid option!

The atrocity of mass murder would require an appropriate respons that didn't occur (arresting & putting the murderers on trial). The atrocities -extremely cruel or wicked deeds- I mentioned (severe torture, kidnapping/torture for no justifyable reason whatsoever and something viewed as nothing short of rape!) can be compared because we can see if these specific atrocities were met with an appropriate response; a punishment befitting the atrocity commited!
That you don't want to compare them is based on the strawman argument that -only- mass murder can be defined as an atrocity. Pff.

Listen. Offcourse, I do see the difference between murder and kidnapping. And I do see that this atrocity (because it is just that, by definition!) shouldn't be met with the same punishment as murder, but like I explained above, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be punished and that we can't weigh the 'punishment' or the lack thereof. We can and thus we can compare the two organisations to a certain extend.


Mattin Stepaneos is the rightful ruler of a nation. A nation already suffering from the chaos surrounding it! Taking away it's ruler by force is an act of war! And the way the king was mistreated the whole long, slow journey to Tar Valon -is- an atrocity in and by itself -and- the possible consequences for the nation shouldn't be ignored in this either.

Was Elaida punished for this act of war? Not in the slightest? Should she be trialed and hanged -as we would expect when she had commited/ordered a mass murder-? No, ofcourse not. But the whole organisation behind Elaida just shrugs off this atrocity and keeps the King as a captive! What do you mean 'checks & balances'?


Are you crazy? This. is. mental. -RAPE-. man! Every Aes Sedai -members of the organisation Alanna is from- is disgusted by the very notion!
Immagine getting (yourself?, your sister?, your girlfriend? someone close to you) raped and the purpetrator of this atrocity is just being slapped on the wrist a few times and getting a finger waggled in front of him/her!

Rand accepting her? He's trying to flee from her presence every chance he gets. What is he supposed to do? Kill her (and go crazy)? Rand is a man so often beaten into the dirt mentally, a man realising he will die soon. But it's irrelevant; just because the victim doesn't act, doesn't mean the institution behind the purpetrator shouldn't!

You're making up excuses instead of viewing this mental rape for what it is and is called by every expert in the books! An atrocity that remains unpunished. The purpetrator doesn't get punished at all like you'd have us believe. Alanna gets used by her own organisation to keep a leash and tabs on the victim!

Does Alanna deserve the same punishment for the atrocity she commited as the Questioners for theirs? Perhaps. It's not my call, but I could very well understand her being stilled & imprisoned for what her own institute would describe as a horrible, ruthless deed. The fact remains that not -one- Aes Sedai acts to get Alanna punished for what they themselve discribe as a hidious crime. Nooooo.. they -use- 'posiible punishment' as a stick to keep her inline just as they -use- the advantage it gave them over the victim...
It's disgusting, really.

Checks & Balances! *rolls eyes*



Hang on. So the school-director of the school your daughter goes to tortures your little daughter with weapons, bringing her to the brink of death... and you'd be 'ok' with said school-director recieving a 'formal' punishment?
Something like "now now, Elaida. You know you're not allowed to do that! Now carry on with your job".

I'm starting to get the feeling that -you- don't know what an atrocity is, to be honest. Certianly not if you even consider an act this cruel and severe punished with a formal slap on the wrist!
This deserves loss of station, stilling and imprisonment!


The Sisters present had the opportunity to stop this ruthless torture and they should have -stopped- Elaida the second she started!
Elaida abused her station, her powers (weapons) in the most atrocious way I can come up with, -juuust- short of torture followed by murder.



Now you're digging yourself in deep, deep shit, darius.

Because the way I see it is that basically what you're saying is this:
"If it's in a rule-book, it's OK"
...
Because if that's the case, then what crime did the Questioners commit? I'm sure it was in their rule-book somewhere that their atrocious method of "pacifying and clearing a small village of Darkfriends" can be found in Chapter 41, subsection 5!

It's NOT ok, because it's been portayed as "the Red Ajah's rule-book and MO" since the beginning of the series. And certainly not the WAY Rand was taken.

Since like you yourself say Alviarin kept Elaida 'cowed over this'. That must mean you, Alviarin and Elaida all full-well realising something was seriously wrong in the taking!
Are you suggesting Alviarin keeping Elaida 'cowed over this' is proper judgement and punishment of this crime commited?
Because I don't see why you bring this up, if not to point out that this was taken care of properly. Checks and Balances on atrocities! Yes sir!


Again, you're making an atrocity less then it is. The victim -an innocent captive- was severely beaten all over every-single-day. Said captive was kept in a BOX for weeks, for Christs sake! He was parched. It's mental and physical torture of the worst kind and -personally- I'd rather be "pacified" twice over, to be honest.

What you wrote about this atrocity of the worst kind I can think off (short of adding rape), is a joke. Nothing more.

There were plenty of Aes Sedai -present- during the trip to put a stop to this extremely evil, cruel, abominable acts, commited to a prisoner day after day after day....
You using "Erian's special cisrumstances" as an excuse is disgusting.
"Refusing to take part more then once"?. Christ man...
That's like saying "Hey! I only raped her once! And I felt really, really sad that day!. The others raped her several times each day... and I tried to make it nicer for her when I climbed on top...just that once!"

It's an atrocity alright! And it's -not- punished. Not during, not after...and WO treatment is a Strawman argument; they're not from the White Tower and neither are all the purpetrators HUNG like the deserve.


Oh boohoo! Atleast *I* didn't try to come up with an -excuse- for Bornhald not taking more action then he did. He should have. And you seem to agree with that.

And now you shove "Shalon's comments" in my face? Get real.
Bornhald knew members of his organisation commited a cruel crime -an atrocity- and didn't act enough.
Shalon knew members of the Aes Sedai organisation commited a cruel crime -an atrocity- and she -nor any Sister present- acted at all!

What's worse is that Shalon literally states that the purpetrators "had committed a grievous crime known to all"
That includes Aes Sedai like Cadsuana.

Sjegs 'n Balnzes.. yaya


How about you drop your strawman argument and see these hidious crimes for what they truly are; atrocities that should have all been severely punished but weren't.

Just becuase it wasn't mass murder specifically, doesn't mean they don't represent atrocities.

Sorry.