Active Users:573 Time:13/12/2025 11:21:46 AM
Forsaken Chapter Shannow Send a noteboard - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM
I found the Forsaken chapter somewhat disappointing. It was clearly the work of someone who had all the superficial information about each Forsaken, but was trying to summarize their personalities all over again as if presenting it for the first time.

Graendal was talking about Demandred and Semirhage as if thinking about them for the first time. From this chapter you wouldn't think she'd known them for four thousand years, give or take a little. Or rather, for about 300 years in realtime, give or take a few decades.

As an example:

Based on Demandred's reaction to one comment from Moridin, Graendal suddenly changes her opinion regarding which of Demandred or Semirhage is the more dangerous to her? What the hell? It's not like she hasn't observed their respective tactics, attitudes and attributes over the course of a WORLD WAR that lasted for 10 years!

I would think that she would have made up her mind about their comparative strengths by now.

What is clear to me now is that the female Forsaken are even more gender-biased than the males when it comes to assessing the strengths of fellow Chosen. Everyone was criticising Rahvin for underestimating Lanfear in FoH, but Graendal seems to naturally consider the female Semirhage to be a foe as dangerous as Demandred. This despite her acknowledging that Demandred might have been the Dragon HIMSELF had he stayed with the Light!

That simply does not make sense. It is clear that Demandred is the leader of the trio. And it is also clear that Graendal is not half as cunning and intelligent as everyone has been making out up to now.


For one, it has NEVER before been suggested that Demandred sought to keep his alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage secret from the other Forsaken. For pete's sake, they've openly huddled together AT FORSAKEN MEETINGS in previous books. Arangar knew about their alliance in Book 11, yet she did not consider it to be any kind of achievement to have this insight. It is open knowledge. Yet Graendal thinks herself smart for "cracking that secret." I mean, come on.

And the way Graendal thinks about Moridin - making him her pet etc. She clearly has immense delusions of grandeur.

My estimation of Graendal has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after reading this chapter.

What has come across yet again, however, is just how dangerous Demandred is. In EVERY appearance thus far, throughout the series, he has only been regarded with respect or awe by other Forsaken. We have had references to his ability and menace from almost all the Forsaken by now.

Graendal refers to the immense danger he presents, and then her female bias seems to elevate Semirhage to a position equal to that of a potential Dragon. Only for an instant, though, until Sanderson seems to bring reality home to us, however dubious the suggestion that Graendal had not yet analysed the comparative strengths of these two Forsaken a few thousand years ago already.

More revealing than Graendal's opionion, however, was Arangar's comparative view of Graendal and Demandred. The common thread between Arangar and Graendal's views was their high estimates for Demandred's ability. The difference, is that Arangar considered Graendal a far less dangerous adversary to try and manipulate. If I recall, her words were something to the effect that Demandred was far too dangerous to play her games with.

I particularly enjoyed the casual way Demandred stated that he would have tracked Semirhage down and claimed her life in retribution had she killed Rand. None of the other Forsaken reacted with ridicule at his statement. Certainly Mesaana did not, and she knows Semirhage's strength - having compared it to her own before.

And despite Demandred's arrogance, he has never made idle boasts before. If anything, the contrary has been true. He has refrained from making any kind of threats the less controlled Sammael was prone to make.

My conclusions based on this chapter:

Graendal is dumber than we thought up to now.

Graendal is going to die in this book.

Demandred's stature was enhanced yet again. He has consistently been built up as a Forsaken of note, and will no doubt make a dramatic entry towards the very end of the series, playing a key role in the final outcome.

Moridin is starting to put personal issues above the goals of the Dark One. Or rather, his insanity is making him even more stupid than before. The idea of sacrificing an asset of Semirhage's ability just because she hurt his phantom hand a little is petty and short sighted in the extreme.



This message last edited by Shannow on 18/09/2009 at 10:41:00 PM
Reply to message
TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3438 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 309 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 854 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 335 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 308 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 720 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 736 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 647 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 695 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 777 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 408 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 828 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 863 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 805 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 814 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 412 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 357 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 682 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 788 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 836 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 830 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 819 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 767 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 684 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 791 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 751 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 673 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 713 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 685 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 836 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 389 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 711 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 649 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 722 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 661 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 827 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 664 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 968 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 843 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 786 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 811 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 450 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 747 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 784 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 731 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 795 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 363 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 878 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 850 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 923 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 934 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 862 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 863 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 891 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 835 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 329 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 851 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 766 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 730 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 814 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 679 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 799 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 824 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 755 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 636 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 621 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 752 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 786 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 717 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 765 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 804 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 657 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 736 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 650 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 692 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 692 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 832 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 709 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 696 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 612 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 641 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 729 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 639 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 806 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 822 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 755 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 804 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 806 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 866 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 679 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 780 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 667 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 639 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 695 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 716 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 716 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 589 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 323 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 720 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 732 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 836 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 726 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 846 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1639 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 703 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 619 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 700 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 693 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 588 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 795 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 712 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 761 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 666 Views

Reply to Message