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Re: Forsaken Chapter AgentOrange Send a noteboard - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM
I found the Forsaken chapter somewhat disappointing. It was clearly the work of someone who had all the superficial information about each Forsaken, but was trying to summarize their personalities all over again as if presenting it for the first time.


It's strange that you figured this out, yet attribute some of Brandon's 'shortcomings' to the character itself.



What is clear to me now is that the female Forsaken are even more gender-biased than the males when it comes to assessing the strengths of fellow Chosen. Everyone was criticising Rahvin for underestimating Lanfear in FoH, but Graendal seems to naturally consider the female Semirhage to be a foe as dangerous as Demandred. This despite her acknowledging that Demandred might have been the Dragon HIMSELF had he stayed with the Light!


you should reread that. She doesn't think he might have been the Dragon himself. She says that HE thinks he might have been. It's also implied she thinks he's deluding himself.

That simply does not make sense. It is clear that Demandred is the leader of the trio. And it is also clear that Graendal is not half as cunning and intelligent as everyone has been making out up to now.


I don't agree with either statement. There's isn't really a leader to the trio and there's nothing clear about it.

For one, it has NEVER before been suggested that Demandred sought to keep his alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage secret from the other Forsaken. For pete's sake, they've openly huddled together AT FORSAKEN MEETINGS in previous books. Arangar knew about their alliance in Book 11, yet she did not consider it to be any kind of achievement to have this insight. It is open knowledge. Yet Graendal thinks herself smart for "cracking that secret." I mean, come on.


This is Brandon's mistake. Quite obviously.

What has come across yet again, however, is just how dangerous Demandred is. In EVERY appearance thus far, throughout the series, he has only been regarded with respect or awe by other Forsaken. We have had references to his ability and menace from almost all the Forsaken by now.


I'm not sure I agree. One interesting part was when Demandred goes into a "Only I get to kill Lews Therin" fit, and Moridin kind of shrugs him off as a useful hound. "Yeah sure sure whatever. You'll do it". Later when Moridin is left with Graendal he remarks thar Al'Thor musn't be hurt till he faces Morirind on the last day. Clearly he isn't taking Demandred too seriously. I wonder if it might turn out to Rand's advantage at that final moment.

More revealing than Graendal's opionion, however, was Arangar's comparative view of Graendal and Demandred. The common thread between Arangar and Graendal's views was their high estimates for Demandred's ability. The difference, is that Arangar considered Graendal a far less dangerous adversary to try and manipulate. If I recall, her words were something to the effect that Demandred was far too dangerous to play her games with.


Yes, but that's because he might try to kill you. Graendal would rather entangle you in her plots. And she has more sense of humor to flirting/ploting.

This message last edited by AgentOrange on 19/09/2009 at 09:54:05 AM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* Sidious - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3615 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* Blaine - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 471 Views
mobipocket.com NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 1046 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* Blaine - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 411 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* NaClH2O - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 484 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue ajfurst - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 859 Views
As short as the prologue was Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 872 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 925 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? RandAllThor - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 851 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 1052 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 571 Views
The interview BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 1201 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 1109 Views
I'm a little surprised nobody is discussing this. I thought this would get more attention. *NM* Lanfear - 20/09/2009 09:17:57 PM 590 Views
Well, Lanfear... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 976 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 991 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 599 Views
You blame her? *NM* Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 540 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 830 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 941 Views
Trollocs! NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 1101 Views
Why not a gray man then? Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 994 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 1083 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 910 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 836 Views
But there's no plausible deniability Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 1058 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 902 Views
Why? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 836 Views
simple answer:scouts redhand - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 996 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 950 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 1169 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* MikeyMikeyMikey - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 564 Views
Great idea. Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 859 Views
Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:15:47 PM 1012 Views
Re: Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:41:12 PM 975 Views
No one. Terez - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 807 Views
A possibility, but... NaClH2O - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 989 Views
Well, yeah... Terez - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 804 Views
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Fades are smart enough though Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 822 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts Lanfear - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 1192 Views
Or PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 1019 Views
My first thought was Great Lord of Chaos - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 1118 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 968 Views
*NM* AliasRY - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 600 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 998 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... Cannoli - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 948 Views
Lol *NM* Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 1068 Views
Forsaken Chapter Shannow - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 982 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 541 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter AgentOrange - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 1022 Views
Wrong... Shannow - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 998 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 1187 Views
Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 1109 Views
Re: Huh Shannow - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 1098 Views
Re: Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 1016 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 1339 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 1108 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* Shannow - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 503 Views
Remove your blinders man... fionwe1987 - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 1024 Views
After third reread StinkerSkunk - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 916 Views
Ituralde's plan ajfurst - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 1008 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that AliasRY - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 1064 Views
This makes perfect sense The Dude - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 845 Views
Various comments Etzel - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 972 Views
The Dying Man Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 1167 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 918 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... Etzel - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 792 Views
Symbolism Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 790 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 926 Views
That is a really stupid idea Guava - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 1147 Views
Yeah Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 968 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 1134 Views
This isn't evidence. Yvves - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 973 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 922 Views
Personally, I disagree. Digital_Eon - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 999 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 820 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 857 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Shannow - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 850 Views
I think there are many issues here Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 1105 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 849 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion Sidious - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 949 Views
Its a stretch, but... Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 770 Views
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Levee en Masse Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 893 Views
Re: Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Curie - 20/09/2009 09:44:06 AM 956 Views
I think Demendred might take over though AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 923 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? Shannow - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 973 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand Sidious - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 1121 Views
Some sweeping statements there... Shannow - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 921 Views
Not at all Sidious - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 990 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... Shannow - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 979 Views
Not really Sidious - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 1021 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... Shannow - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 850 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 941 Views
Possible... Shannow - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 811 Views
So that's your argument now? fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 877 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... Shannow - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 838 Views
Its simply, really. Heiko - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 988 Views
Hmmm... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 868 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 754 Views
Sure. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 390 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 992 Views
Well Heiko - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 908 Views
Re: Well Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 1034 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 1079 Views
Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 1005 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1814 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 898 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 783 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 877 Views
I don't really agree Sidious - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 995 Views
But these aren't criminals... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 742 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable Sidious - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 944 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable fionwe1987 - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 889 Views
Doubt it... Etzel - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 913 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 822 Views
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