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No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable Sidious Send a noteboard - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM
No. All that is needed for success as a criminal is the absence of intelligence on the part of the law.

Which means that the mind of the criminal in that situation is superior.

Of the vast number of successful criminals in this world, few are genius super crooks, who lay subtle, twenty year long plans to confound the genius police forces (which rarely exist).

According to who? You? A crime kingpin has to actually be pretty clever to avoid jail over a long period of time. It's all the idiots who get caught.

The quote above seems appropriate for some Agatha Christie novel, where the detectives are so clever, that only the master crooks can almost beat them. Crime in reality is more a competition of lower stupidity than greater genius.

The relative concept is what's important, not the true value. In the Forsaken's case, Rand is not a genius. It seems that the best from the AOL were rather mediocre indeed if a farmer can outsmart them.

Their score is 500 to 0? In which book series? You make the mistake of measuring their success by the body count of a gang of 15 people! You ignore the vast suffering, the major wars and the sheer chaos they have spread to the common man.
Maybe that is RJ's greatest flaw. That he failed to show us how Graendal's actions affected the common Domani, how Semirhage's actions have wrought unspeakable suffering in a huge continent, how Sammael, Asmodean and Rhavin sent thousands to deaths. Because we can only appreciate these in a cerebral fashion, too many people tend to write off the evil of these characters.


Even the Forsaken don't care about these things despite the fact that they are atrocities. They don't speak about how profound the chaos is in Ilian or Seanchan. All they care about is Rand - and they've caused him minimal inconvenience. Of all the Forsaken, Asmodean has done the most damage by firing up Couladin as a potential Car'acarn, which seriously diverted Rand for a prolonged period. Elayne basically walked into an undamaged Andor despite the 'destruction' of Rahvin - she'll get the place cleaned up in a few months. The same can be said of Ilian and Tear despite the two male Forsaken's best efforts. Semirhage caused true chaos and plunged Seanchan into anarchy - but that actually helped the Dragon Reborn more than anything else.

Imagine writing off Hitler as one of humanities greatest evils because he never won a duel and in the end shot himself. Imagine writing off all the deaths of the millions of Jews because Hitler was a moron whose idiotic policies saw the most brilliant minds rush to America to help in the construction of an atom bomb. Imagine writing off the instigator of the most destructive war human kind has seen because he was paranoid and a megalomaniac who failed to use his best generals out of fear.

Because that's what you're doing here.


If Hitler's only goal was to kill Churchill, my point would be entirely appropriate. The Forsaken are not there to perform atrocities, they are there to defeat the Light, which means that they only have to kill Rand al'Thor and they've won. Not only can they not kill him, they can't even kill his friends. Not even one.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 21/09/2009 at 12:45:33 PM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* Sidious - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3404 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* Blaine - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 276 Views
mobipocket.com NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 816 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* Blaine - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 321 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* NaClH2O - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 283 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue ajfurst - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 696 Views
As short as the prologue was Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 708 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 604 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? RandAllThor - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 673 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 723 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 385 Views
The interview BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 769 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 813 Views
I'm a little surprised nobody is discussing this. I thought this would get more attention. *NM* Lanfear - 20/09/2009 09:17:57 PM 390 Views
Well, Lanfear... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 761 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 787 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 383 Views
You blame her? *NM* Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 326 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 661 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 734 Views
Trollocs! NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 795 Views
Why not a gray man then? Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 788 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 753 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 745 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 654 Views
But there's no plausible deniability Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 734 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 725 Views
Why? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 648 Views
simple answer:scouts redhand - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 678 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 641 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 775 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* MikeyMikeyMikey - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 358 Views
Great idea. Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 683 Views
Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:15:47 PM 698 Views
Re: Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:41:12 PM 701 Views
No one. Terez - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 617 Views
A possibility, but... NaClH2O - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 668 Views
Well, yeah... Terez - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 634 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs Lanfear - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 796 Views
Fades are smart enough though Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 642 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts Lanfear - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 894 Views
Or PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 809 Views
My first thought was Great Lord of Chaos - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 710 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 785 Views
*NM* AliasRY - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 423 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 705 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... Cannoli - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 753 Views
Lol *NM* Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 673 Views
Forsaken Chapter Shannow - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 753 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 327 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter AgentOrange - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 842 Views
Wrong... Shannow - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 814 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 863 Views
Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 896 Views
Re: Huh Shannow - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 818 Views
Re: Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 822 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 788 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 796 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* Shannow - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 299 Views
Remove your blinders man... fionwe1987 - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 808 Views
After third reread StinkerSkunk - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 737 Views
Ituralde's plan ajfurst - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 675 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that AliasRY - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 768 Views
This makes perfect sense The Dude - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 650 Views
Various comments Etzel - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 759 Views
The Dying Man Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 757 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 730 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... Etzel - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 612 Views
Symbolism Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 593 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 702 Views
That is a really stupid idea Guava - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 701 Views
Yeah Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 665 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 703 Views
This isn't evidence. Yvves - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 775 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 611 Views
Personally, I disagree. Digital_Eon - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 697 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 609 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 663 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Shannow - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 660 Views
I think there are many issues here Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 795 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 684 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion Sidious - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 649 Views
Its a stretch, but... Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 581 Views
I thought about that Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 614 Views
Levee en Masse Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 689 Views
Re: Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Curie - 20/09/2009 09:44:06 AM 755 Views
I think Demendred might take over though AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 591 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? Shannow - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 770 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand Sidious - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 760 Views
Some sweeping statements there... Shannow - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 716 Views
Not at all Sidious - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 756 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... Shannow - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 771 Views
Not really Sidious - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 822 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... Shannow - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 639 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 738 Views
Possible... Shannow - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 643 Views
So that's your argument now? fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 597 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... Shannow - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 660 Views
Its simply, really. Heiko - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 667 Views
Hmmm... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 685 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 562 Views
Sure. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 310 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 656 Views
Well Heiko - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 699 Views
Re: Well Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 794 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 665 Views
Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 796 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1607 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 645 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 569 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 669 Views
I don't really agree Sidious - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 652 Views
But these aren't criminals... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 554 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable Sidious - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 759 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable fionwe1987 - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 683 Views
Doubt it... Etzel - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 730 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 625 Views
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